Tuesday, October 22, 2019


Jim: Roundtable time again. .  Remember our e-mail address is thethirdestatesundayreview@yahoo.com.  Participating in our roundtable are  The Third Estate Sunday Review's Dona, Ty, Jess, Ava, and me, Jim as well as C.I. of The Common Ills and The Third Estate Sunday ReviewBetty's kids did the illustration. You are reading a rush transcript.


Jim (Con't): Most of our topics are coming from e-mails; however, we have on that Ava wants to start with which is her own topic.

Ava: I want to address C.I.'s "I just don't care" from Saturday night.  I actually wanted to add "I co-sign on this" to it.  I am a Latina, I support immigration rights.  I support a path to citizenship -- a real path, not a circus.  It is nonsense, to whine about a man who beat his wife -- among other convictions -- being threatened with deportation when he is not a citizen and had a path to citizenship.  Not the pretend path that currently exists, he had a real path because he was serving in the US military and there are hundreds of pictures of the induction ceremonies for those serving.  He could have become a US citizen at any point while he was in the military.  He even had a go-to-the-front-of-the-line pass afterwards as a veteran.  We are fighting for immigrants to have a real path to citizenship and, one of the few groups that does currently, is the US military service members.  Jose Segovia Benitez chose not to.  And as C.I. says, "That's on him."  All we can do is fight to create that path.  If people are given a path, a real path, like he was, and they don't use it, there's really nothing else that can be done.  There are families being ripped apart and they don't have the path that Jose had.  They would give anything to have had that path.  He had it and he didn't want to use it.  "That's on him."

Jess: I'm really getting sick of this whole "veterans deserve better treatment than other people!"  There should not be two classes.  I don't care if you are serving in the military, you shouldn't be treated better because of it.  You should get your promised healthcare benefits and anything else you're promised.  That's all I'll agree to.  Point being, they simplified the path to citizenship for those serving in the military, they could and should do the same for other immigrants.

Dona: What I want to talk about is something Ava referenced above.  I know she and C.I. have proposed another feature -- and I support that but I think the point also needs to be included in this roundtable -- it's a point strong enough to support inclusion in two pieces this edition.  That point is, Caroline Orr, this little troublemaker and liar, is forever Tweeting garbage because she is garbage and that's fine, some people are just garbage.  But here's my problem with her, this piece of garbage claims she's a feminist.  I am a feminist.  And let me be clear on this, if you beat a woman and you're not a US citizen, I want you out of this country.  I don't want you in this country any longer.  You beat a woman?  You're going to do it again.  I don't care if it's because of PTS or something else.  I just don't care.  You have physically attacked a woman and you are now a threat to all women in the country, so you need to leave.  I'm sick of people claiming to be feminists and then turning around and trying to 'save' men who beat women.

Ty:  NBC notes, "His convictions include corporal injury to a spouse, for which he received an eight-year sentence, assault with a deadly weapon, false imprisonment, narcotics possession, conspiracy to commit a crime and driving under the influence, ICE said."

Jim: Remember when Rachel Maddow had that man who beat his wife on her show?  She was so tickled by him that she had him back at the end of the week.  And there were people rightly calling her out for that on the show's own board -- UNFILTERED on AIR AMERICA RADIO.

Dona: I do remember that.  But if you are a feminist, you're not fighting to keep a wife beating non-citizen in this country.  Caroline Orr is more interested in demonizing Donald Trump than in helping women.  She's garbage.

Ty: There's a tendency to Disney-fy those who serve.  To make them into little saints.  I object to that.  There are good people who are teachers and there are bad people who are teachers.  By the same token, there are good people in the military and there are bad people in the military.

Jess: Part of the reason the battle to dismantle the War Machine has to struggle so hard is that so many in the US glorify it without meaning to.  It's their stupidity at play.  They end up doing so uch damage.  There's another example we could use.  The so-called 'resistance' that glorifies the CIA is doing very real damage.  "They're heroes!"  They're not heroes, they're not even a part that helps a democracy.  But in the urge to throw anything and everything at Donald Trump, the 'resistance' embraces the CIA.  It's disgusting and it's harmful and we all suffer as a result.

Jim: In terms of Dona's point, let's be really clear that it was second wave feminists that shined the light on domestic abuse.  And it's Ava and C.I. who have spent years here noting this is actually terrorism and I agree with that point.  So for Caroline Orr to try to keep Jose from being deported?  She's not a feminist.  And she's undoing the work that so many who came before her had to in order for domestic abuse to be seen as a crime and not a personal problem.

Dona: Good point.

Ty: A reader, Gordon, e-mailed to say that he is surprised we haven't waded in on Donald Trump and "his abandoning the Kurds."  He writes that he'd like C.I. to respond to that "in the next 'Mailbag' or 'Roundtable'."

C.I.:  The Kurds were not abandoned.  The Kurds are not just in Syria.  So let's grasp that first and if we're talking about the suffering of the Kurds, let's talk about how they're treated in Turkey.  If the Palestinians ever get equal rights, note that next group that will garner sympathy will be the Kurds because their persecution is immense.  It pales in comparison to the Palestinians, but the Kurds are persecuted.  Even in Iraq, they end up persecuted.  The US has a long history of betraying the Kurds.  I don't see Donald's move as betraying them.  US forces shouldn't be in Syria.  US forces should not be assisting ISIS.  The whole thing has been built on lies.  When truth has entered the picture, it has been attacked.  Look at how the media went after Sarah Abdallah trying to say she didn't exist or was a fake and all because she represented a view that contradicted US foreign policy.

Jess: There are plenty of real things Donald's done to complain about.  Pulling US troops out of Syria really isn't one of them.

Jim: We're being asked in e-mails why we're not doing more book coverage?

Dona: I would argue that was done last year and everyone's earned a break.  At least one book was covered every week by a community site last week.

Jim: Some feel that Edward Snowden's book should be covered.

Ava: Be careful what you ask for.

C.I.: Exactly.  I read it.  Didn't care for it and was being kind by being silent.  It should be a gripping book.  It's not.  The only section with any urgency is when his girlfriend is telling her story of what happened after Ed left Hawaii.  It's not a bad book by any means.  But it's a little too distant and removed to provide urgency.  And there's nothing in there in terms of spying revelations.  It just makes clear that a very rich man bought Ed's secrets -- if not his soul -- and those secrets are forever buried.  You'll never read them at THE INTERCEPT and you won't read them in Ed's book.  He didn't even take on Senator Dianne Feinstein.  She lied about him, to the media in hearings, she flat out lied.  And taking on those lies might have made for an interesting chapter.  Instead, he presents himself as a boy scout, he's far too busy making the case for how normal and average he is to be of any interest.  I read that book awhile back.  I never planned to mention my thoughts on it but if the subject's being raised, there it is.

Jess: For the record, "When women write memoirs (Ava and C.I.)" appeared here in September with a focus on Demi Moore's book.

Dona: That is correct.  And we heard from some fools in e-mails -- fools who think they're Mila's best friend -- that it was so unfair for Demi to write that book, that it was so unfair for her to talk about stuff that happened a few years ago.

Ava: Key word is "her."  No one ever slammed Burt Reynolds or any man -- not even Tony Curtis who lied repeatedly or Eddie Fisher who also lied repeatedly.  But Demi's the bad one.

C.I.: As noted in that piece, if that sort of response had been encouraged by either Mila or Ashton, we -- Ava and I -- are more than happy to provide the details Demi didn't.  She was very kind.  Ashton would have no career right now if Demi hadn't pulled punches. And Ava's right, it's only when a woman writes a book that the pearl clutchers come along.  It's a brave book and it's a truthful book.  It's also her story and she has every right to tell it.

Jim: 15 years.  That's how long this site's been going -- I do have a point.  I picked up the latest TV GUIDE and it's got four different covers -- all for the show SUPERNATURAL which is entering its final -- and fifteenth -- season.  In 2006, you -- Ava and C.I. -- wrote, "We're not sure what to make of this show. On the one hand, it's like really bad gay porn where the leads forget to take their clothes off. On the other, it's as though someone had a secret fondness for The American Girls."  What's the biggest surprise after 15 years?

Ty: That we're still here.

C.I.: And so is the Iraq War.

Jess: Yeah, I'd agree.  I wasn't a Democrat.  I'm a Green.  But I really am surprised that we still have troops in Iraq and in Afghanistan.  I ended high school in one world and was in college when another began -- the world of never-ending wars.

Ty: And the world of no accountability.  Politicians swear ending the war matters one minute and the next pretend they never heard of Iraq.  You can put Barack Obama on that list and Nancy Pelosi and countless others.

Dona: Until Tulsi Gabbard, in the July debate, refused to challenge Joe Biden, I really thought she might be the real deal, a politician who would make a difference.  But she couldn't even stand up to Joe and spent the days after insisting he'd apologized for his vote for the war -- which he really hadn't done -- and that he regretted it.  No, he didn't.

Jess: More to the point, Joe Biden's vote for the war was only one of many, many ways he destroyed Iraq.  And the refusal -- until VOX recently -- of any coverage of Joe Biden's run this year to address how he overturned the 2010 vote of the Iraqi people to give thug Nouri al-Maliki a second term?  I'm just disgusted and can't believe how naive I was 15 years ago.  I really did think the war would be over, American troops would be hone, etc.  I was an idiot.

C.I.: You were young and you were looking at a morphing world becoming something no one ever would have expected.

Jim: And here we are today.  Let's note this is a rush transcript.

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