Jim: This is a music roundtable focusing on music, random topics. Remember our e-mail address is thethirdestatesundayreview@yahoo.com and we can also be reached at common_ills@yahoo.com. Participating in our roundtable are The Third Estate Sunday Review's Dona, Ty, Jess, Ava, and me, Jim; Rebecca of Sex and Politics and Screeds and Attitude; Betty of Thomas Friedman Is a Great Man; C.I. of The Common Ills and The Third Estate Sunday Review; Kat of Kat's Korner (of The Common Ills); Cedric of Cedric's Big Mix; Mike of Mikey Likes It!; Elaine of Like Maria Said Paz); Ruth of Ruth's Report; Trina of Trina's Kitchen; Wally of The Daily Jot; Marcia of SICKOFITRDLZ; Stan of Oh Boy It Never Ends; Isaiah of The World Today Just Nuts and Ann of Ann's Mega Dub. Betty's kids did the illustration. You are reading a rush transcript.
Jim (Con't): So, someone kick it off.
Wally: I will. Steve Grand. Lot of good songs -- including "All American Boy," "Time" and "Stay." But I was streaming the other day and "Pink Champagne" came on. I thought it was Bright Eye before the chorus kicked in.
Mike: Oh, my God, I can totally hear that. Yeah.
Kat: I haven't caught that. And I love them both. I'll have to make a point to listen to that. Bright Eyes gets critical recognition and it's deserved, however, Steve really doesn't seem to. I think he's a great songwriter and I'm so glad Wally mentioned "Time." I really love that song.
Rebecca: It's a great song but he's gorgeous and he doesn't get the credit he deserves as a result. It's the same with women. Demi Lovato and Ariana Grande don't get half the critical respect that Taylor Swift does and it's because they are both gorgeous.
Jim: And Taylor's not?
Rebecca: Taylor's kind of like Madonna -- well maintained, well groomed, not beautiful and not really pretty.
Cedric: Is she over yet? I'm so tired of Taylor and her one song over and over. She really has become a one trick pony.
Betty: She really needs to work at digging deeper. She's in danger of becoming Connie Francis -- someone who racks a lot of hits and then fades away. Leslie Gore, for example, is remembered kindly. Many from that period are. But Connie sort of top-tenned her way onto the uncool list and stayed there.
Cedric: I think that describes Taylor.
Kat: She tends to coast. She seems to think she can. I don't agree but who knows.
Ty: Edmond e-mailed that PBS has been airing an Andy Williams special for weeks now and he keeps hoping that Ava and C.I. will review it.
Ava: Pass. No thank you.
C.I.: I don't see promoting a racist, sorry.
Jim: A racist?
C.I.: I'm not speaking out of school. Bob Mersey spoke of that publicly in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Bob worked for COLUMBIA RECORDS -- producer, arranger, conductor, A&R head, etc. He worked with Barbra Streisand, Aretha Franklin, and Andy Williams. He'd speak of how he pitched Barbra for Andy to use on one of his TV specials and Andy said she wasn't famous enough. He pitched Aretha and Andy said "who wants a Black artist." I'm sorry but that's racist. Andy wasn't a nice person in the industry. Again, Bob Mersey, who worked with Andy, is on the record making those remarks over the years -- it's just no one really noticed it or ran with it at the time. Kind of like the other artist PBS has been running with who was calling Tina Turner the n-word as late as the mid-80s and quoted doing so in print magazines but, hey, let's pretend he's a rock and roll classic and not the bastard he is whose substandard band was lucky to have any hits at all.
Dona; Okay, related, there are a lot of songs that were hits that we know. What about songs that you think should have been hits?
Rebecca: Barbra Streisand's "Niagara." From WET. One of the most beautiful songs she ever recorded. It should have been a single, it should have been a hit.
Kat: Steve Grand's "All American Boy" if Cher had recorded it -- or would record it to this day. It's a natural hit for Cher.
Marcia: Janis Joplin's "A Woman Left Lonely."
Ruth: For me, there are just too many songs to note. I could probably make a whole list. I remember thinking, for example, that Diana Ross and the Supremes' "Young Folks" was going to be huge. It ended up just being a top forty hit. But I would sing that to one of my sons as I rocked him to sleep when he was a baby. I saw Barbi Benton perform "In The Winter," that great song Janis Ian wrote, on some TV show and I thought, "That's going to be huge." But it wasn't. I was surprised because Barbi could really sing and I did not expect that from her. Does everyone know who Ms. Benton is?
Stan: Some of the younger ones may not. I remember her on TV growing up. I'm sure my cousin does too.
Marcia: I do, Ruth. She was an actress and singer. She had dark hair and was very pretty and was with Hugh Hefner. She was a PLAYBOY BUNNY and she has a series that was kind of like Ann Jillian's IT'S A LIVING -- it was called SUGAR TIME.
Rebecca: And she was one of those celebrities like Charo who was always on TV -- LOVE BOAT, FANTASY ISLAND, CHIPS, CHARLIE'S ANGELS, HEE-HAW, VEGAS --
Isaiah: Completely in the dark. I had to Google her and Rebecca's right, she was all over TV. She was on FANTASY ISLAND eight times alone. THE SONNY & CHER SHOW, MCLOUD, MARCUS WELBY. She's pretty. I was expecting someone a little more -- I don't know. She looks more like some pretty lady on your street and not someone who'd be a centerfold. I'm referring to her face, not her body and I didn't mean my remarks as an insult.
Ruth: She was very pretty. Maybe that goes to Rebecca's earlier point about how the more attractive you are the less seriously you are taken musically?
Wally: I think it does.
Ruth: But, yes, there are many songs I thought would be hits that were not.
Elaine: When Wilson Phillips released their debut album, I thought "A Reason To Believe" would be a hit but they never released it as a single.
Jess: That's a song a lot of people recorded. Cher did it in the sixties. It's a Tim Hardin song.
Elaine: Wilson Phillips did a strong version on that 1990 album.
Dona: It should have been a single. Three years later, Rod Stewart released a live version of the song and it was a huge hit for him. I hated "Impulsive" -- on that album WILSON PHILLIPS. They should have released "A Reason To Believe" instead.
Mike: Do you think the group suffered, since we're on Wilson Phillips, from not recording more covers? They had a hit with Elton John's "Daniel," for example, while they were a hit making band. Then, when they come back in the '00s, they have hits with Fleetwood Mac's "Go Your Own Way" and the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations."
Elaine: The second album was a very dark therapy session. That's what killed it. "Hold On" had some heavy lyrics but it had a beat and a winning attitude. This was darker than most wanted at that time. Glen Ballard would pursue that more when he teamed with Alanis later for her JAGGED LITTLE PILL album. But at the time they released their second album? Most people weren't ready for it and SHADOWS AND LIGHT killed the band's momentum.
Marcia: I remember that album, I hated it. I did like the first album. But I hated the second one.
Kat: C.I.'s nodding to me. Clarify? Yeah, Glen Ballard wrote songs with Wilson Phillips and he produced their first two albums. He would go on to do the same with Alanis Morissette.
Trina: It's funny because we are all different ages and generations and yet we all do know Wilson Phillips -- and not just because they performed "Hold On'' in BRIDESMAIDS. In their limited time on the charts -- really about three years, they did reach out to a wide circle. Some of us were interested in their sound because Chynna was Michelle Phillips daughter -- of the Mamas and the Papas -- and because Carnie and Wendy were Brian Wilson's daughters -- of the Beach Boys. But there was huge interest in them. That second album? Even the cover was depressing.
Jim: Can a cover kill an album? Anybody?
Isaiah: Marvin Gaye's album covers pretty much always disappoint. I had to make myself listen to those albums. And I'm sorry but WHAT'S GOING ON is not a great album or even a good one. I don't know if someone thought they were tossing out crumbs to us -- us being African-Americans -- or what but Marvin never made a good album, let alone a great one. Now Stevie Wonder? He has made so many great albums. And great covers. TALKING BOOK? It or Joni Mitchell's BLUE would be the only albums to match the Beatles' SGT. PEPPERS. Marvin's a pipsqueak by comparison.
C.I.: Those are great albums, Stevie's and Joni's and the Beatles but I'd elevate other albums to that level including Aretha's greatest album to me, YOUNG, GIFTED AND BLACK. That is an amazing album. She does an incredible job on the songs she covers -- the title track, "Didn't I (Blow Your Mind This Time)," "I've Been Loving You Too Long" and "Border Song,'' for example. But look at her own songwriting on that album -- "Day Dreaming." I love that song. I learned drumming because of that song. I'm not joking. I'm self taught on the drums and that's the song that made me pick up drum sticks. I studied piano and guitar but bass and drums I picked up on my own. Bass due to John McVie's bass work with Fleetwood Mac. But there's "Day Dreaming" and her classic "Rock Steady." But those ballads -- "All The Kings Horses" and "That First Snow in Kokomo"? They're so beautiful. There are 12 tracks on that album and they work together and they tell a story. It's Aretha's finest album, in my opinion. And I love a lot of her albums -- including WHO'S ZOOMING WHO and A ROSE IS STILL A ROSE and her tribute to the great divas. But YOUNG, GIFTED AND BLACK is her classic.
Betty: I would agree with that. It's impressive, it's epic. I would also add Diana Ross' diana ross and THE BOSS as classic albums that are among the best. With THE BOSS, she's working again with Ashford & Simpson and Nick and Val always brought out the best in Diana. "Once in the Morning"? I think people just need to hear that song, it's amazing.
C.I.: Betty, I've got you on this. Absolutely. With Ashford & Simpson, Diana created a classic album that explores one woman standing up and exploring her independence. It's in the songs and, certainly, she had to get away from California to get away from MOTOWN and work on this personal project. It's really something and I'd love to hear a really steamy house mix of "Once in the Morning." And the remix of the title track? I'm referring to the remix on DIANA EXTENDED: THE REMIXES is amazing. The way they opened the vocal up, stripped down everything so that the song just opens with that vocal? It really is amazing and that remix really highlighted all the vocal work Diana did on that song. She's amazing.
Betty: Agreed. I love that remix too. And diana -- all lower case -- is her 1980 album where she worked with Bernard Edwards and Nile Rogers of Chic. She then went back and remixed everything because she didn't like their mixes. They threatened to take their name off the project; however, it became a huge hit and they stopped complaining. Diana knew what she was doing. And that's obvious not only from its success but also because, in 2003, we got a deluxe edition that also included the original mixes. They're nice but they wouldn't have had the impact that Diana's remixing had.
C.I.: Great songs. There are only eight tracks but it is a classic album. "Upside Down" and "I'm Coming Out" are known classics. In Europe, "My Old Piano" was also big. But you've got songs on their like "Have Fun Again" that are just perfect and, on that song especially, you can hear what so inspired Michael Jackson about Diana's voice. You can hear a lot of THRILLER vocal work on diana, in fact.
Betty: I would so agree with that. And back to the cover, that's a look Michael copied as well. So much of his inspiration came from that album. And "Now That You're Gone"? I could listen to that track over and over. It's a classic album and certainly the dance classic album of the 20th century. No one else comes close, not even Donna Summer's BAD GIRLS album.
Jim: Thanks for bringing it back to the cover issue, Betty. And for those who are newer readers, we did a piece on Diana Ross years ago that was very negative. Betty was in tears and C.I. was angry. In retrospect, it's the only thing I wish we hadn't published. People always think that if you know one of us you get a break. The only good thing about the Diana piece was it proved that wasn't true. C.I. is friends with Diana and it still went up. She hated that piece but she didn't try to censor it. I regret publishing it because it was my idea to do an overview of Diana's career one Saturday night. And that was a stupid idea on my part. I didn't realize just how many albums that would be. And, of course, C.I. had everything. So to write the piece we had to listen. I was exhausted and I believe others were as well. I think that accounted for some of the tone.
Ty: The only saving grace to that feature was the illustration of Diana Ross.
Jim: But when Betty just brought up Diana and C.I. said something like "I got you on this," that's what she was referring to. It is still a sore spot.
Betty: And always will be. One of my favorite artists got trashed in an unfair piece that wasn't even written in a bitchy manner that would make you laugh.
Jim: I will note that we did offer to do another piece.
Betty: And I don't think C.I. and I ever want to work with the group on a piece about Diana again. And we have covered this -- C.I., myself, Mike and others -- in an outside roundtable that went up at all the community sites.
Jess: In other words: Next.
Betty: Exactly.
Jim: Okay. C.I., it's noted that you don't highlight male artists at THE COMMON ILLS?
C.I.: That's nonsense. Whomever e-mailed that doesn't know what they're talking about. For approximately five years, at least once a week we did an entry entitled "And the war goes on" featuring the song Donovan recorded. Donavan's a man. I've noted Van Hunt, Stevie Wonder, Prince, George Michael and others. I note Ashford & Simpson to this day and that's Valerie with her late husband Nick. Do I highlight women more? Absolutely. But to claim that I don't highlight men is nonsense. To say I don't highlight them as much is accurate. They probably make up 8% -- if that -- of the musical highlights.
Trina: And C.I. regularly notes The Mamas and the Papas which is two men and two women. But we do try -- as a community -- to note women. That's something that's not a rule but that is a principle. C.I. created THE COMMON ILLS, all of the rest of us followed and were inspired by that site. One of the things C.I. did was make sure women mattered. To offer a contrast? The PUMA sites that sprung up in 2008 were very disappointing. They were pro-Hillary and that's fine. But they couldn't cover Hillary in every post. So they'd do things like '10 films to watch this weekend' and stuff like that. Not only would the list includes sexist films against women but they would all star men. Now women were in charge of these sites. But when they compiled lists of movies or lists of songs, there was no effort to ask about inclusion, to notice that everything they cited was a song by a man, an album by a man, a film starring a man, ten books by men, etc etc. And I don't care if this is off topic or not, I'm staying with it and finishing on this topic, C.I. had already pushed out against that long before the emergence of PUMA but it's telling that women who wanted to celebrate Hillary still were caught in some patriarchy response where they accepted male as the norm and as the definer. As a group, we reject that notion. And that's why this community is so diverse. We've got how many sites now -- not to mention community newsletters -- and this all sprang up as a result of THE COMMON ILLS and what C.I. created there.
Elaine: I agree with Trina 100%. I will note that I try to do a music piece at least once a week at my site. Sometimes it's women, sometimes it's men. But it never tips over to being more men than women. I won't allow that. I think C.I. took a stand at a time when no one wanted to and I respect that stand and I agree that we all spring from that stand.
Jim: Okay and I don't disagree with a thing that either you or Elaine said. But since it was said, Ava did you want to add anything?
Ava: Support for what was said. Two months after THE COMMON ILLS started, this site started. C.I. and I ended up being paired off that first time and it stuck. We knew a lot of the same people and we shared a lot of beliefs and values. When it became our square -- the TV pieces -- we were very careful to note that we were presenting a feminist critique -- not 'the' feminist critique. There is no one voice. We try to be aware of that while offering -- strongly -- our own views. We try to use female reference points whenever possible. If we're quoting a song, we're going to ask ourselves, "Is there a woman who already said this better?" We're going to ask that before we quote a man. The internet needs to expand the canon not just repeat it in all of its bias that kept women and all people of color out. I'm not going to name the name writer who was going to 'show us how it was done' -- in the words of the magazine that hired her to be us but I will note that every week she covered some show starring a man. By the time she was telling us how 'feminist' HANIBAL really was, I knew it was over for her. I would have loved for her to have succeeded but, in the end, her acceptance of the male standard meant she was never going to succeed. All she was? A female voice repeating the views of men of the 20th century.
Jim: Before we close this topic, Ava, how would you grade the work you and C.I. have done?
Ava: I think we have a body of work as Dona's been saying for years. I actually disagreed with her when she first started saying it and she had to walk me through. Every week, we do at least one media piece and sometimes it's a shock to realize just how many that's been. I think we have been at the forefront of the feminist discussion of the 21st century which means we have been just as guilty of excess and of silence as anyone else struggling with these issues. No better, no worse. We're a portrait in time and we learn as we go along. I think we tried and I think that's enough.
Jim: Okay, Kat, you and Elaine did a co-review together. You wrote "Sam Smith's LOVE BLOWS."
Kat: And some thought we would be a team from now on and some wondered if we were trying to be Ava and C.I. The reason we did it together was because -- Elaine, want to grab it?
Elaine: I'll grab some. We were both trying to cover music over the summer because Covid was depressing the hell out of everyone. So we tried to cover music at our sites -- Kat and I. And Sam Smith finally released his delayed album.
Kat: And Elaine is a huge fan of Sam Smith's. I like Sam a lot but he's one of Elaine's favorite living male artists.
Elaine: My top four is probably Stevie Wonder, Sam Smith, Jack Johnson and Ben Harper.
Kat: And we were talking about the album when it finally came out and Elaine had probably done eight or nine blog posts over the summer about the album. So I offered that we could write it together and Elaine said no, just use what I wanted from our discussion. And I said, "With my memory?" Much laughter followed. We ended up doing it and I had a blast and would love to do it again but we don't have any plans at present.
Elaine: People liked the review and I'm glad. Kat and I worked hard on it and C.I. did an edit for us. But that's really Kat's turf so I don't rule it out but I don't have any plans to do it again. Kat is fun to write with, though. I need to stress that. We laughed a lot and had a great time.
Jim: Ann, Sade?
Ann: I wasn't planning on speaking but you did say Sade. When I think of music, good music, I think of Sade. She makes albums. You put it on and listen all the way through. My regret on music these days is that there are so few who try to make albums anymore. A lot of people are trying for singles and then the album is that plus filler. Or Taylor Swift with her collection of songs that say nothing. I like a journey, I like a theme. I like an artist who can work in a large format. I wish we had more Sades.
Isaiah: I wish we had more of Sade. And now Tracy Chapman's become another Sade. It's been 12 years or so since we got a new album from Tracy. What's up with that? At least give us a live album, if nothing else.
Jim: Looking back on the last ten or so years in terms of singles, who would you say was the -- THE -- artist?
Rebecca: Rihanna.
Marcia: I was just going to say that.
Mike: In terms of the popular songs? Maybe Bruno Mars.
Cedric: No one's really dominated the way that Prince, Madonna and George Michael did in the 80s other than Rihanna.
Ruth: Adele?
Isaiah: Anybody other than Ed Sheeran.
Ann: Amen to that.
Jim: Rap?
Kat: Kendrick Lamar. Drake wet dreams about Kendrick's tracks and then wakes up crying.
Betty: Non-rap, I would give some props to Frank Ocean.
Isaiah: Agreed. And I'd add Harry Styles.
Betty: That's a good one too.
Ava: Solange.
Wally: I wish I'd said that!
Jim: And that's the note we'll wrap things up on. We were asked to do more music coverage recently so this is a step towards that.
