Isaiah: Sure. Chris Hedges is a journalist who used to report for The New York Times -- where he won a Pulitzer -- NPR and other outlets. Now he writes a weekly column for Truthdig. He's a Socialist. Like everyone participating except for Ava and C.I., he voted for Ralph Nader in 2008 -- Ava and C.I. will only allow that they voted for Ralph or for Cynthia McKinney. His most famous book is War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning. His latest book is 217 pages.
Dona: Thank you, Isaiah. Elaine, I'm going to start with you. What stood out to you in the book? Positives and negatives about it.
Elaine: I guess I'd go with chapter three and specifically zoom in on the section about plays. Both the federal works program which allowed art to flourish and the attacks on it where even Marlowe was considered a Communist. Negative? I disagree that the theater was dead from 1939 until Amiri Baraka emerges. That sort of leaves Death of a Salesman and many other plays forgotten, doesn't it? Arthur Miller and Lillian Hellman are mentioned in the chapter, in a sentence noting their politics, not their art or the politics of their art.
Dona: You and C.I. knew Lillian Hellman. Anything you'd add on her specifically?
Elaine: Her plays were political plays, her stands were political ones. I would have expected more than one sentence on her in this book, especially when it deals with the McCarthy era. Scoundrel Time remains -- her book Scoundrel Times -- remains the definitive account of that era.
Dona: Rebecca?
Rebecca: I agree with Elaine's point. I also have to wonder about the criteria by which he awarded praise to plays. Was it based on politics? If so, where's Waiting for Lefty? Clifford Odets isn't even mentioned in the book. I found it confusing, the section, because I had no idea what the criteria was.
Dona: Okay. Mike, Betty and Kat, you put "Liberal Defectors" down as your favorite chapter. What are your thoughts, why did it stand out?
Betty: Mike, why don't you go first.
Mike: Sure, thanks. This is the chapter that outlines how it's okay to be wrong, it's just not okay to be right. You can be on the left or 'left' and cheer on the Iraq War and claim it's going to be great and wonderful and then show up -- like Lawrence Gelb -- after saying, "Woops! What was I thinking?" But if you're opposed to the Iraq War and your opposition ends up being backed up by the events, you are shut out. You have to support the War Machine, from the right or the left, you have to support it or get shut out of the conversation.
Kat: Betty's pointing to me now. The whole thrust of the book is how elements on the left striving for respectability sell out the left and, in terms of this chapter, it's not even that they believed the Iraq War was the right thing, it's that they knew what was accepted and what wasn't and tailored their remarks and opinions. They play a game and delude themselves that it allows them to sit at the decision table and influence the programs and practices.
Betty: And Hedges point is that nothing gets accomplished to help people. The corporatists steer things to their own interests and leftists deluding themselves that they're somehow helping but all they're doing is collaborating in the destruction -- in fact, giving it bipartisan cover. We'll probably see that play out in the attacks on Social Security which are about to start.
Dona: Ann and Cedric, what stood out to you about the book?
Ann: For me, I'd have to say it was the same as for Trina. The Ralph Nader section at the very end sort of pulled together all of the threads and acted as a singular example of how we get defeated. To explain, Ralph Nader's doing exposes, doing the press work for them, all they have to do is write a review of his work basically, his work is also leading to Congressional committee hearings and that all comes to an end as money controls the press and the Congress in ever greater concentration and it's not enough to turn Nader into a non-person, he also has to be ripped apart.
Cedric: I would agree with that. I also liked how Trina used political prisoner Lynne Stewart to make that point. It doesn't take great courage to say, "I support Lynne." Watch: I support Lynne. See the sky didn't fall down, I'm still breathing. But instead of defending her strongly, the left in magazines and in colleges chose to be silent or else to offer the weakest of defenses. I doubt Chris Hedges would but I'd include a large number of academics. I say "I doubt" because I'm thinking of one woman in particular and I'm sure Ava and C.I. will touch on that. So I'lljust include my two-cents in the roll out for their remarks.
Dona: Okay, we can go there now. Ava?
Ava: Cedric's talking about Frances Fox Piven. Francy. We write about Francy this edition, C.I. and I. We have no problem with Communists, Socialists, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, whatever. As long as you are what you state you are. For example, don't pose as Democrat or "independent" if you're a Communist. Closets are for gorgeous clothes, not politics. And we would argue that closet cases like Francy do more damange than anyone else.
Dona: How so? And Ava's nodding to C.I.
C.I.: If you're tricking people, you're not getting a message out. Francy's a Platonic type scholar, not in the question and answer, the seek inquiry sense, she's Platonic in that she feels she's a philosopher-king and should hold all the cards and trick the masses into following along. If you believe Communism -- or whatever, but let's stay with Communism -- you're not going to trick people into it. People aren't stupid. Now you might be able to make the case for it publicly. But this idea that you'll call it something else and you'll pretend your real aims are this or that? You're not only not helping Communism, you're hurting it. Ava.
Ava: In the Ralph Nader section, it's rightly noted by Ralph that he wasn't invited on Bill Moyers Journal the way you'd expect. We'd certainly agree because we made that point here in 2008. Equally true, when Bill has on a Communist or Socialist guest and Bill and the guest work overtime to conceal that, they're not helping anyone. I'm watching Bill Moyers speak to Jane Haines and I'm thinking, "She's so smart." If she's a Communist and that's hidden, it's defeated my heading down the path to a politics that speak to me. Closets do no one any good and it's damn sad that so many in academia took to them and have remained in them. Again, Communism is a valid political theory and it doesn't need to be hidden. Those who do so are a bit like 60-year-old gay men still trying to pass for straight.
C.I.: And we think Chris Hedges did a wonderful job in this book and Trina's going to give the wrap up. But we would add a footnote to it which would read something like: "Also destroying the radical left were th radicals who were too scared and decided that subterfuge and lies could trick the public." You can't trick the public into a movement. It doesn't and has never worked that way.
Dona: Alright, as noted, we're letting Trina have the last word.
Trina: Thank you. What stood out so much was how enjoyable the book was. Granted, I was very sick when I started it, but there were times when I'd flip back a few pages to re-read a section I'd just finished not because I didn't grasp it but just for the joy of the words. This is a really strong book that has an important argument to make and one that applies to today and, as Betty noted, that we can probably apply to coming moves on the part of the administration, such as the attemtps to cut away at Social Security. One more time, we've been discussing Chris Hedges' Death of the Liberal Class.
