Rebecca: Sure. I started reading the book -- and I recommend it, we all do -- and wrote about it a bit in "joni mitchell book & music" at my site which led to an e-mail from a regular reader who was just stunned by something in the book, which I wrote about in "michelle mercer needs to do some growing up." For a little less than two pages, Michelle Mercer leaves her topic of Joni Mitchell to rip into Carly Simon. And it's just this vicious little attack.
Ann: I was shocked and I only picked up the book due to the controversy, I'd read Rebecca's post and knew something was coming, and I was still shocked. "Her bombshell sex appeal was her artistic banner." Me-ow, Mercer, me-ow. That Carly was a songwriter who only attracted interest because of her "high-profile affair with Warren Beatty and marriage to James Taylor." I can continue but people are already getting antsy to respond.
Dona: Ann's right, just looking around the circle, you can see that everyone's dying to respond. I'm going to go to Trina.
Trina: That's such garbage. Carly Simon is one of my favorite singer-songwriters, she's one of my favorites to listen to period. Her, quote, "bombshell sex appeal"? She's an attractive woman but her sex appeal has never had influence on me or on my evaluation of her. It's a little catty and bitchy to attack an artist, an accomplished artist, because you're apparently jealous of her looks. As for the fame and interest? In real time, when she had that brief fling with Warren Beatty? No one knew about it. There wasn't an Entertainment Tonight, there wasn't even People magazine back then. Following, excuse me, stalking, the love lives of the famous was seen as tabloid and childish. Hard to believe today when that crap passes for news. Carly was a Grammy winner and had hits and two albums under her belt before she ever slept with Warren Beatty and that was also before she married James Taylor. She's already written the evergreen "Anticipation."
Dona: Okay, well said, Trina. Everyone's nodding. I'm going to toss back to Ann because she's got the book open still.
Ann: Quoting from the book, this is page 152, "Like many of the female songwriters who followed" followed Joni, "Carly Simon was incredibly photogenic, but her melodies and lyrics were dim picture negatives of more artful songwriting."
Wally: I think Trina called it correctly, that's garbage. Before the roundtable started, C.I. and Ava stressed that we don't need to fall into Michelle Mercer's trap of tearing down one talented artist to build up another. So I won't play her game by implying that Joni Mitchell isn't tuneful. But I will note that her melodies were never major melodies, they were minor, built around minor notes and minor chords, for the bulk of her career. That's especially true when she loses her audience in the mid-seventies because they complain about her lack of melodies. Her early eighties album, Wild Things Run Fast, is promoted by the label as Joni's return to melodies. So Michelle Mercer is so desperate to destroy Carly in order to promote Joni, that she makes a fool out of herself. Carly's melodies are extremely strong. There's not anyone in this circle who can't sing "Anticipation" or hum "You're So Vain" or any of her other memorable melodies.
Elaine: I'll jump in to back Wally up. As noted earlier, Carly was once married to James Taylor. He doesn't mention her today. He's publicly refused to mention her since their divorce. He can't shut up about Joni, whom he was involved with before he married Carly, but he can't even acknowledge Carly's existence. I remember calling C.I. when he was promoting that bad, bad album, what was it?
C.I.: Never Die Young?
Elaine: Yes. And he was in Musician magazine and I'm reading through the entire damn interview, fully aware that Carly's just had a tremendous comeback with multiple singles receiving huge radio play and charting on adult contemporary's top ten like "The Stuff That Dreams Are Made Of," "All I Want Is You" and "Give Me All Night" while "Coming Around Again" has also done that and gone top twenty on the pop charts while her album of the same name is going platinum. And here's an interview with her ex-husband whose bad album before the awful Never Die Young didn't sell so well and they're talking about everything under the sun but Carly never comes up. And I called C.I. asking, "What's the deal?" Why didn't the reporter ever even ask about Carly? And C.I. says the reporter probably did but asshole James Taylor won't deign to speak of Carly. I say all of that to note that in the last Rolling Stone Interview James ever spoke of Carly, this was a few years before their divorce, even he had to note that no one had stronger melodies than Carly. Even James The Cold Freeze Shut Out had to praise Carly's melodies. And the reason for that is that Carly's got the strongest melodies. Stronger than Joni's, stronger than James', stronger than any of her peers.
Ava: I'll hop in on this point. Trina noted that Carly had already won a Grammy before being married to James Taylor or sleeping with Warren Beatty. It's also worth noting that this artist that Michelle Mercer is ripping apart and calling untalented is the only singer-songwriter in her peer group to write a song, one song, which won the Academy Award, the Grammy and the Golden Globe, "Let The River Run." That was Carly. Not Joni, not James Taylor, not Jackson Browne, not anyone in her peer group. Only Carly.
Dona: I can hear in Ava's voice that she's ticked off. I was as well. When I read it, I was pretty pissed and I was really shocked. It was so bitter and mean and evil. I just couldn't believe the hatred Michelle Mercer was putting on the page. And I was kind of shocked because C.I. recommended the book. And I didn't realize that it was something C.I. and Elaine and Rebecca and Trina and Ruth and women their age and older would just roll their eyes over because they were so used to it. I want to start with Ruth.
Ruth: Well, like you said, we are used to it. There was the Joni camp, I'm going back to the late sixties, and there was the Laura Nyro camp. The Janis and Grace fans didn't really figure into this. And they also didn't have a bitch-fest in an attacking one or the other. If you were a Janis Joplin or a Grace Slick fan or both, you just saw them as complimentary, as fire and ice, as most reporters dubbed them. But with Joni and Laura, it was as though to admit one was talented was the worst thing you could say about the other. Their fans were just brutal to each other. Laura ended up leaving the music business and never really coming back until the mid-eighties -- I don't consider her brief, 'here's an album and a mini-tour' moments in the seventies and early eighties to be returns. When Laura left, Joni fans -- her extreme fans -- weren't happy. They'd already seen Carole King as a threat and Carly as an emerging one. Carole was the bigger target for their rage because Tapestry was so huge. But they quickly moved on to Carly. Now I'm a fan of Carly, Carole, Laura and Joni. Just to be clear. And as I remember it, Carole fans, extreme fans, didn't fight back, they just found the Joni groupies ridiculous. Carole was never into a star trip and didn't want to be known for anything but her songs. So Carole fans didn't engage. Carly fans were puzzled and then pretty much hurt. That reaction, my guess based on what I observed, came from the fact that Carly represented sisterhood and feminism and it was puzzling to see other women attack Carly if you were a Carly fan. You were wondering where the hatred was coming from? But Joni's extreme groupies -- women like Michelle Mercer -- weren't about sisterhood. They were generally isolated people who didn't relate well to others. But it was vicious, the attacks on Carly. And it really made me wonder at the time, "Did Laura drop out of the music scene because of these attacks?" They were getting vicious against Laura and I do wonder what kind of a toll they took on her.
Elaine: And just to back up Ruth, the attacks were vicious. I'm referring to the ones on Carly. I don't really remember the attacks on Laura. I've heard of them and read some of them since Laura took her semi-retirement. But at the time, it didn't register with me.
Ruth: You were too young.
Elaine: You're too kind. But like Ruth's saying, it was vicious. And there was a cooling off from about 1975 to 1982 when, as Wally noted, Joni released her album billed as "Joni rediscovers melody." And during that time period, if you spoke to someone about how negative the attacks on Carly had been, they'd agree with you and think it was a testament to understanding and the feminist movement that it had stopped. But it didn't stop, it just went into hiding when Joni entered the period of recording that found a number of her most devoted fans angry with her and running off.
Dona: C.I.'s pointing to Ty. I asked for help remembering to include everyone since I'm moderating. Ty?
Ty: Well we ended up with six e-mails about the Mercer book. Our e-mail address is thirdestatesundayreview@yahoo.com. Two of them announced they read on and could enjoy the rest of the book but four said they stopped on page 152 when the attacks on Carly started. And I want to point out that these are attacks. This isn't criticism. Throughout the book she brings up this or that artist to compare and contrast Joni with. But Michelle Mercer is never as dismissive and as bitchy as she is with the others which include Leonard Cohen among others. And, sorry, maybe it's a White thing but Lenny Cohen is full of s**t and this African-American male wouldn't be caught dead listening to his tuneless and non-melodic meanderings laced with judgmental Old Testament imagery.
Ann: I didn't even know who Leonard Cohen was. Sorry. I asked Betty, "Who is this Leonard Cohen?" She explained it for me.
Betty: And that's the other thing, about this attack, that's the other thing. It's so stupid because you ask the average person to sing a song by Carly, Joni or Leonard Cohen and the bulk of them will sing you a Carly Simon song. Both because she's got that strong sense of melody and also because her songs are well known. Joni would probably get the second most and then Leonard Cohen. Carly, Joni, Leonard and all the rest had the same shot at airplay in the seventies. Why is that Carly's songs were the ones America embraced? Don't say, "They were pablum and like Britney Spears! Not indicative of taste!" Sorry, that would be Olivia Newton-John and others who really stormed the charts. Carly charted and pretty much charted on the singles chart with every release -- that's correct right?
C.I.: Carly had a top 100 charting single for every studio album in the seventies.
Betty: Thank you. Carly's music spoke to people. That's why "Anticipation" remains so well known, why "You're So Vain" is a rock classic, why the opening notes of "The Right Thing To Do" are so identifiable to so many of us, why "Haven't Got Time For The Pain" is so recognizable. I love Joni's music and I love Carly's music. I don't see them as the same artist or even similar. I don't set out to rank either against the other but if you force me into a corner, Carly will come out ahead every time.
Dona: Because?
Betty: She's got melody and she's got plenty of soul. Between the front cover of the album of Spoiled Girl and the way she sang, I thought the first time I heard her, my brother had that album, that she was Black. The lips and the voice. But Carly's got soul and few White singer-songwriters of that era can claim that. Carole King probably comes closest and none of the men, especially the ones who think they are soulful, ever makes it. But Carly's got a voice that's just so flexible and strong. She can do call and response with herself. She's just got a full bodied voice and you really don't come across that on a lot of White women. Celine Dion, for example, has more notes than probably anyone but she has no soul. She can be expressive but she has no soul. It's a weight, it's a feeling, you either have it or you don't. And Carly's got it and it's among the reasons that she's been so successful.
Kat: In Rebecca's "michelle mercer needs to do some growing up," Rebecca points out that Joni's fade as she went into jazz was helped by the attacks on Carly. I really believe that. I'm a huge Joni fan, but Court & Spark was not an album I could listen to in real time. I wanted to but if I had someone over, I was at risk of hearing, "That's the real thing, not Carly . . ." and this long rip into Carly Simon. Court & Spark is art, no question. But, also no question, Carly's produced her own art. And it really was something to see, you just recoiled as Joni's extreme fans went around attacking Carly. They attacked every woman who wasn't Joni. I can remember a harangue against Melissa Manchester around the time of "Midnight Blue," but their big target was Carly and it was because Carly was successful and talented.
C.I.: Well, it was because Carly was successful and talented in a society that still pushed the belief that there was only room for one woman. A token. And if Carly rose, that meant Joni had to fall. That concern never existed for the men. In seventies rock, there was plenty of room to rank James Taylor, Jackson Browne, Don Henley and assorted others as musical geniuses. For the record, I'd only give that title to Don. The other two are minor artists at best. And that's based on the fact that James and Jackson 'play' in their songs too much, trying to be 'regular people' instead of being honest. Don's got an honesty that goes to art. And so do Carly and Joni. The major artists have it. That doesn't mean that the song you hear is a page from a diary. It may be. But art does allow you to change up details. But what it does mean is that they are brutally emotionally honest. But you could pretend that Lowell George and Randy Newman were great geniuses and you could scrape the barrel and hail the songwriting of Lou Reed as well. And it never meant that the overrated James Taylor was ever in any jeopardy of being downgraded. But there was only room for one female token. And that's at the root of it as well as the fact that a lot of women had to learn on their own that society pitting us against each other does us no good.
Kat: In Rebecca's post, she quoted you saying something like, "No, Michelle Mercer, just because Cecile is pretty doesn't mean you aren't pretty too."
C.I.: Right because that was the mentality society tried to push off on women. If she is pretty than I can't be. You were supposed to be forever in competition with other women.
Elaine: Or you rejected it outright. I mean, C.I. looks great and people are always thinking, "Oh, she's so modest" or "Oh, she must have low self-esteem." The reality is C.I. made a decision to drop out of that competition back in college. C.I. completely rejected a focus on the looks. I don't mean, she stopped wearing make up or went around trying to look poorly. I just mean she would not let you discuss a woman's looks. If you started that conversation around her, she'd stop you and you certainly didn't focus on her looks in your comments to her.
C.I.: Wow, that's really. I think you actually nailed it and I hadn't thought of it that way. But yeah, the beauty wars, I wasn't going to be a part of that. I didn't enjoy the emphasis on it or the knowledge that immediately beyond the you-are-so-beautiful was the next stage of you're-more-or-less-beautiful-than . . . Rebecca, Elaine and I went to college together and, for the record, they are both stunning women and were then as well. And, if any of us think about it, we can usually come up with several women -- I'm thinking of one in particular who cried for hours at one party -- who would be devastated because their boyfriend had left them and spend for ever with what was the normal -- as society dictated it -- reaction: Is she prettier than me? I mean who the hell cares? She's got your boyfriend now, does it really matter if she's prettier too?
Rebecca: I'm laughing that was funny. But, yeah, just to echo Elaine, I mean guys would rave over C.I. and she would just reject it, she would not allow it. If she'd known Betty then -- Betty wasn't born -- she would have taken Betty's line of "I do not receive that." And between that and the refusal to be the errand girl, the Girl Friday of every political group, C.I. really did blaze a trail for the rest of us on campus, the rest of us women. And I can see the difference in me in high school and in college as huge. I really was, in high school, in competition with every other girl to be considered the prettiest.
C.I.: Just to stay with this because it is part of the mentality that existed then and which is hopefully fading, but, Rebecca, build on that because I don't think most people know your story or will get it.
Rebecca: You mean Doogie? I was Doogie Howser. C.I.'s nodding. I got advanced in school and I was in a college at sixteen. I got advanced and made the grades because presumably I was smart. But it never entered my mind to feel competative on that level. In fact, I frequently felt embarrassed for standing out like that, for my grades. But in terms of looks, I was in competition with every girl in high school and it really was like, to use C.I.'s example, if someone said Cecile was pretty, then I was crushed for the day because if Cecile's pretty than am I really pretty? I mean that was the way we were encouraged to think. And I agree with C.I. that this mentality played out in the Joni and Laura wars -- among their devoted fans -- and the same with the Joni and Carly wars.
Dona: That's so interesting. I can really relate to that because even though I only graduated high school this decade, there are similarities and maybe that's why something like Michelle Mercer's nonsense flares up again. And for any who don't know, in high school, my identity was the "token." That's who I was. I was the token member of the boys club. And it wasn't until I roomed with Ava in college that I woke up to reality. And I'll add an Ava and C.I. comparison. The two of them, when putting on make up, look at sections of their face, they never look at their entire face. They never dwell on their beauty. I thought that was so weird watching Ava put on make up back in college, weird and unique and then along comes C.I. who is the exact same way. Ann, you want to toss out something else from the book?
Ann: She says that "You're So Vain" is Carly Simon writing herself into "the position of romantic victim" again.
C.I.: That is so ignorant. The rest of the stuff she says, I can disagree with and say, "Well that's Michelle Mercer's opinion." But here's she's just being ignorant. It's still opinion but it's grossly uninformed. That's not a victim song and it's a writer using the power that writers have always had, the ability to shine the light and illuminate that which is hidden, to expose. And Carly exposes a type of man in that song and does so via mockery and other devices. "You're So Vain" is a woman empowering herself. There is also the context in which the song comes -- an area where Michelle Mercer shows even greater ignorance. Today, some women would not see Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots Are Made For Walking" as an advancement. But it was one. And women had to take those steps with those songs. "You're So Vain" was a huge step and as important to women as Alanis' "You Ought To Know" would be in the mid-nineties.
Kat: Again, I lived through the attacks on Carly from Joni disciples so the venom from Mercer didn't really surprise me but when she started rewriting "You're So Vain" to paint Carly as weak and as a victim player, well, honey, then every one of Joni's songs from that period finds her playing a victim. Joni's writing about romances that didn't turn out to be long lasting as well. And to accuse Carly of only being famous for being married to James and for sleeping with Warren Beatty? I mean, we've covered this but I will add the footnote no one wants to. Rolling Stone did that diagram. They did of Joni, not of Carly. The diagram of all the famous men she'd been with from David Crosby all the way through. Jackson Browne. Graham Nash. James Taylor. And to me, when Michelle Mercer lies about Carly only being famous for two men -- when she famous before either man was a part of her life -- she's really exposing herself. Her fear is that Joni is only famous because of the men in her life. Joni didn't win a recording contract on her own. She couldn't get one. They weren't interested in her. Then David Crosby, her lover, stepped in. Now that's not Carly's story. No lover stepped in for her to get a recording contract. And we could go through this bit by bit. But my point here is Michelle Mercer has to destroy Carly because she fears that Joni, her hero, is guilty of the crimes she projects onto Carly.
Ty: That's really an interesting way of looking at it. Hmm. I wanted to note your "Kat's Korner: John Fogerty rushes to country-lite" which went up this morning. I love that review, by the way. You point out another peer is yet again recording an album of other songwriters and, as usual, women are no where to be found.
Wally: Except the brawling drunk who co-wrote a song.
Ty: Yes, except for her. The White Ikette, as I remember.
Kat: Well, Judy Collins is my baseline there. She's supposedly a feminist. She finally made the singles chart via Joni Michell's "Both Sides Now." And yet in the last twenty years, she's dedicate three albums to highlighting songwriters and they were all men. In the 90s, she did her album of Bob Dylan songs. This decade she's done an album of Leonard Cohen songs and an album of John Lennon and Paul McCartney songs. But Judy's never done an album of Carly songs or Joni songs or any woman. She's never even done an album of various songs by various women. Robert Flack, for example, is a talented writer. She doesn't have enough songs possibly to do a tribute album because she hasn't released enough of her own songs. But what she has released is very talented. And there's Janis Ian who certainly has enough songs. There are so many women songwriters who do. And here's our 'feminist' Judy Collins releasing her third album to highlight male songwriters. When our 'feminist' artists won't even honor the work of women, what hope do we have?
Wally: And grasp for a second that Judy is known for Joni songs, "Michael from Mountains," "Chelsea Morning" as well as "Both Side Now." So if you're talking about her big audience from long ago, if Judy's attempt is to get them back on board so that she could actually sell some albums, what the hell is she doing recording Leonard Cohen? "Suzanne" is not a big hit for Judy. Whereas an album of Joni songs would result in some attention from the press along the lines of, "It was Joni Mitchell's songwriting which first brought Judy to national fame . . . Now she offers a whole album rich with Joni songs." And to be clear, that's no excuse for the men and their refusal to acknowledge the work of women.
Dona: Betty wants to speak on this and I'm going to ask her to hold off for just a minute or two. I think Betty's remarks are really going to set the stage for the final portion of the roundtable and before we get to that, I want to turn to Ty with some comments about last week's "The Joni Roundtable" from the e-mails.
Ty: There was huge outrage that Joni Mitchell's self-titled debut also known as Song To A Seagull wasn't selected. That was the most noted complaint. Eunice wrote a blistering e-mail about Ruth calling David Crosby the producer of the album. And the thing was, C.I. told me, Ruth didn't do that. I read over it and Ruth doesn't say that. Joni steered her own albums, regardless of who got the credit, from the start. If Ruth had said it, she'd be correct according to album credits but she didn't say it. Read over it again, Eunice. A lot of people were surprised that more of us didn't pick Blue or Court & Spark. Doug was upset that only Mike selected Turbulent Indigo and wanted it noted that he considers that "Joni's true masterpiece." Will felt Don Juan's Reckless Daughter should have been included. Gillian wrote that she loved it and hopes we do one soon on Carly or another singer-songwriter.
Dona: Thank you, Ty. Okay, we were discussing how men and women are rushing to record songs written by men while ignoring the many songs written by women. Betty?
Betty: I would, if I ruled the world, put a ban on women performing Bob Dylan songs. I'd say, "Stop. Tell me what songs by women you've recorded and you can't count yourself." If they had none, I'd say, "I think you need to go explore the works of Carly Simon, Tracy Chapman, Joni Mitchell and a few others before you became the 12th million person to perform 'Blowing In The Wind'."
Dona: Absolutely. And one of the reasons I'm so excited about Barbra Streisand's upcoming album, Love Is The Answer, is because she's working with Diana Krall on it. And not in a, "Here's two women singing a let's-compete-for-one-man song." And among the reasons why I count Stoney End and Barbara Joan Streisand among my favorites albums by her, she's singing songs by writers like Laura Nyro, Carole King and Joni Mitchell.
Trina: That's really true. I wrote about Stoney End at my site and how it was a huge shakeup for Barbra Streisand who, up to that point, had really been someone my parents listened to but not someone I did. She had a nice voice and all but the music wasn't my type. Then came Stoney End. And you're right, she is doing what we're complaining about others refusing to do. She's celebrating female and male songwriters. If Barbra can do it and can do it to fantastic sales, what's the excuse for everyone else? She's already proven that it's possible. And, to Betty's point, I think there should just be a ban period. Really, take two years off from recording Bob Dylan, everyone. It's been done. It's been done to death.
Ava: Would anyone ever go for that?
C.I.: Actually, yes. In Kat's review, she mentions that the male baby boom critics rarely turn on their own. I have a feeling she would have noted Rod Stewart if she'd had more time. Am I right?
Kat: Yes, you are. Rod Stewart's released Every Beat Of My Heart in 1986 and the critics were out for blood, possibly due to his big hit "Love Touch." They loved it when he teamed up with Jeff Beck for "People Get Ready" the year before and they appear to have assumed they'd get that early seventies Rod back. So when Every Beat Of My Heart was released, they carved him up and, pay attention to this, the most attacked track on the album in the reviews was, drum roll please, "In My Life." Rolling Stone, for example, insisted there had to be something "fresher" for him to record. I mean they ripped him apart and this followed ripping Aretha apart for recording "Jumping Jack Flash" by the Rolling Stones so, to be clear, the Baby Boom Males have stood up before and said "enough" on covering some people. It's past time they did it with Bob Dylan because we could all use a long break.
Ava: I was not aware of that, thank you. If Rolling Stone can encourage people to stop recording the Beatles, they can certainly encourage people to stop covering Bob Dylan. We've focused on the book's attack on Carly because it was so surprising. Dona and I, for example, never knew of this intense need to build up Joni by tearing Carly down. Both women are immensely talented singer-songwriter and they really have nothing in common other than their gender. The world can praise Van Morrison and Paul Simon, they can praise Bob Dylan and the hideous James Taylor, they can praise David Crosby and the forever flat-noted singing Jackson Browne, they can praise Neil Young and -- the list is just endless. And there is no damn reason for women today to put forward the notion that only one woman can climb Mt. Great. Please. Carly's earned her spot there and so has Joni. And so have a lot of other women. We've done -- Dona's pointing to me and giving me the wrap up sign so I'm doing concluding thoughts here -- we've done features on how the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame has so very damn few women in it. We've noted that the Bee Gees, the f**king Bee Gees, are in the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame but not Cher, not Tina Turner as a solo artist, not Carly Simon, it's just a very, very long list. And women tend to get one spot each year in the long list of inducitons. It's ridiculous. And that's what we need to be fighting. Michelle Mercer harms her otherwise wonderful book by refusing to fight the real enemies and instead going off on a tear and attacking Carly.
Dona: And with that we'll wind up the roundtable. This is a rush transcript. The e-mail address for this site is thirdestatesundayreview@yahoo.com.
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9-24-09, Ty note: Opening fixed, thanks to reader Lou Ann for e-mailing to point it out.
