1 Book, 10 Minutes

[Note: This all runs together currently, we know. It won't post from various computers and we've lost it four times. This is from the typed version in Microsoft Word and we'll smooth it up after it goes up but we don't want to risk losing the entire post so we're posting it now. Note II: Entry should now be fixed.]

Jim: We're tempted to call this "1 Book, No Minutes." We had a few pieces that are in the print edition. The only one online that made the print edition is Ava & C.I.'s TV commentary. We thank they're strong pieces. But we've scrapped them for personal reasons, don't ask. As we scramble to polish what we can use for this edition, we sit down for a book discussion. Our focus is one book. Matthew Greenwald's Go Where You Wanna Go: The Oral History of The Mamas & The Papas. Participating in this discussion are The Third Estate Sunday Review's Dona, Jess, Ty, Ava and me, Jim; Rebecca of Sex and Politics and Screeds and Attitude; Betty of Thomas Friedman Is a Great Man; C.I. of The Common Ills and The Third Estate Sunday Review; Kat of Kat's Korner (of The Common Ills); Cedric of Cedric's Big Mix; Mike of Mikey Likes It!; Elaine of Like Maria Said Paz; and Wally of The Daily Jot. Mike suggested this last weekend and we were all able to get a hold of this book. Kat, set us up.

Kat: The Mamas and the Papas were a vocal group. John Phillips sometimes played guitar, but they were known for their vocals. Ironically, Michelle Phillips was the only one in the band who could read music. John Phillips and Michelle Phillips were married and two of the four members. Mama Cass, later just Cass Elliot, and Denny Doherty were the other two members. Famous for "California Dreamin," a song written by John & Michelle, ironically only Michelle was born in California. They shot to fame on "California Dreamin'" in the midst of the British invasion that only Motown was able to successfully and repeatedly challenge. With their first hit, they introduced a new look to pop music that went beyond the hippie look Sonny & Cher would popularize. They also provided intricate vocals that stand the test of time to this day. Along with other groups, they popularized the folk rock genre which attempted to inject some thought, and frequently protest thought, into the music scene.

Wally: Give it up for Kat. Great intro.


Mike: I agree. I picked this book because we love the Mamas & the Papas so it seemed a natural for us.

Dona: And we have readers who love them as well. There's never a time when we don't mention them or one of the members in passing and e-mails come in saying they're so glad someone is talking about the group. That can be older readers who lived through those times and that can be younger readers who picked up on the group after the fact. But the Mamas & the Papas live on in their music and continue to reach people.

Ty: Which is why I was a little leery about Mike's suggestion. You never know what you're going to get from a book and this is a group that means a lot to readers and to us. Reading Greenwald's book I was pleased from the start to see that this wasn't going to be a disaster.

Rebecca: The way I feel that John Phillips' co-written autobiography Papa John was.

Betty: If there was one area I would have liked to have seen more on, addressing an issue, it was authorship. It's touched on. But to read the book, you're not aware that the authorship of songs went beyond John Phillips claiming credit in interviews. There's a disc set I have of my brother's that credits "California Dreamin'" solely to John Phillips.

C.I.: Creeque Alley: The History of The Mamas And The Papas, a two-disc set. John Phillips went through a period where he was grabbing credit for everything. Which is ironic since he was more than happy to be billed for years as the co-writer of "500 Miles" when he had nothing to do with writing that song. I'm referring to folk classic and not the Proclaimers song that was in Benny & Joon.

Kat: And I'll agree with Betty's point. For most Americans, that's the choice you'll end up going with. You can get a two disc set with all the studio albums on it but most will go for Creeque Alley. You're more likely to find it in the stores. A recent import, The Mamas & The Papas Complete Anthology is actually a better purchase but it's four discs, more costly and available only as an import.

Jess: I have that and C.I. does. I believe Betty does as well.

Betty: Right. If you're going to buy a collection, that's the one to get.

Jess: Because you get all five studio albums, the live album of the Monterey performances as well as sample of solo performances by all four members. On the issue of authorship, when you ask someone to sit with you and help you write a song, if they do nothing but sit with you, they've earned their credit. Michelle did more than sit with John. She earned her credit on that song and Betty's right that she was briefly stripped of it.

Elaine: I noticed some trashing Michelle in the oral history. Usually for her sex life. At a time when sexual boundaries were breaking down and the male members, including her husband, were hardly in monogamous relationships. I found that an interesting insight into their own judgements. At the same time, she also benefits from being the sexual object of so many in the remarks of some people. I felt Michelle came off best of the people still alive quoted. She didn't get into a back and forth over whether Jill Gibson might be on a song on the second album. She said she recorded the tracks and then, when she was fired, Jill recorded them and if Jill thought she was on some of the tracks, she might be right. I couldn't get a handle on Denny.

Jess: Both John Phillips and Cass Elliot are dead. Cass died in 1974 and John Phillips in 2001. They are quoted in the book but they were not interviewed for the book. Greenwald's using other resources.

Rebecca: And Elaine brings up an interesting point. A lot of males quoted have their favorite, either Cass or Michelle. They don't do that when speaking of John and Denny. But there does seem to be a "choose sides" approach to the women. Which isn't surprising.

Jim: C.I.?

C.I.: If we're going to discuss the book, I think the thing that needs to be noted, and the book notes this, is that Cass Elliot did not die choking on food, not on a ham sandwich, not on anything. That myth was popularized by Playboy, in this country, I believe and it's simply not true although it's repeated over and over.

Dona: Right. That's an issue to Cass' daughter Owen Elliot-Kugell and it's an issue to Michelle Phillips so let's make sure we do our part to set the record straight. The coroner's report said she died of a massive heart attack. There appears to be some need to promote another myth. There are also those who believe she died under more mysterious circumstances. Regardless of which camp you fall into, she didn't die of a choking on a ham sandwich.

Jim: Wally, that was news to you, right?

Wally: I didn't know how she died before I read this book.

Jim: Because Michelle Phillips covered it in her own book, California Dreamin', which we've all read except for Wally. What did anyone read in this book and feel that hadn't read somewhere before?

Elaine: I'll go back to Michelle Phillips. I thought she was very forthcoming. I think she was too ready to take the blame for things that others earned the blame on and too quick to take the sole blame for things that involved shared blame, but I also thought she was an amazing resource for the book because she was ready to go on the record and she wasn't trying to present herself in the most flattering light or play the saint.

Dona: We should note that the book, as billed, is an oral history. People are quoted throughout and it must have been an editing nightmare for Greenwald but he selects strong quotes and the transitions work.

Rebecca: I'll agree with Elaine. Michelle was putting it out there. I saw that as well from some of the musicians who toured with them, but I didn't see that a lot elsewhere. I saw some superficial quotes, from living persons, and I felt, "Why bother to speak if you're not going to move beyond generalities?"

Wally: I was new to a lot of the people speaking, people in bands and that I'm guessing I should know, so I'll add that I had no trouble following the book despite this.

Cedric: And I think that's a good point. Getting back to Cass' death, I'm glad Michelle was so willing to share for the book because I really don't think there's anything on Cass' passing other than what Michelle offers. I didn't understand that. I don't mean that Michelle's comments should have been whittled down. They should appear exactly as they are. But a number of people speak in this book, highly of Cass. I'll assume some attended the funeral. But whether they did or not, I would assume they might have something to say regarding her passing and there's nothing there. I mean one minute Michelle's sharing at length, then Denny gives what I saw as a superficial, standard, "It's a loss" statement and we're suddenly off on David Crosby talking about heroin use.

Ty: Another area where Michelle's the only one to really speak beyond superficial, and I wasn't thinking about this while I was reading it so good point Elaine because Michelle really does make the book, was when John Phillips died. Again, it's Michelle bearing witness. I'm not trying to rag on anyone. It can be hard to speak of death and we just posted a notice about Richard Pryor and Eugene McCarthy that I don't think can be called much more than a notice. But the people in this book were friends with and knew Cass and John. And they have so little to say about the passing of either, except for Michelle.

Rebecca: She's got an interesting role, I think Kat would agree with me here, in that she's really the one who the torch has gone to.

Kat: Absolutely. Michelle is the one who has the role of group historian. For whatever reasons, Denny's not up to. When John was alive, an attempted read of his overstuffed book demonstrated that John was only interested in John by that point. He wasn't interested in the Mamas and the Papas, they're probably less than a third of the book. Michelle's been the one who the task of setting the record straight has fallen to. So it's good that, unlike John, she's not interested in sainthood. She's going to let it be as messy as it is and not clean it up or tidy it up. There's really not a book without her. Not just because she has actual memories where Denny offers vague generalities, not only because she's a marvelous speaker, but also because she's so forthcoming.

Betty: And she's not afraid to use her power. She speaks of the shaming she had to do to get the Mamas and the Papas inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. The Mamas & the Papas were four years of her life basically if you count when they start rehearsing on the island up until their decision to take a break which is the end until they're forced to record one last album to avoid lawsuits. She's had a life and then some since then. She's just finished filming the Knots Landing special. She has a life and it would be really easy to say, "I'm busy." But there she was on my PBS station talking about the group, not plugging the special and saying, "The next section has . . ." but honestly discussing the group and sitting down to share. A lot of people aren't like that. They're attitude isn't like that. I think she realizes the importance of the group, yes, but I also think she realizes the magnitude of the role that someone has to fill and she's filled it quite well.

Ava: I think that's a good point. Too many people, and having read John Phillips' bio, I'd say he's one, are interested in promoting just themselves. To carry the legacy torch and to make the group's meaning clear does require an honesty that most people don't have. Michelle Phillips has it and that deserves noting both because it is so rare and because it's part of what makes this book come so alive. There was another woman who's name I'm blanking on Ann something.

C.I.: Ann Marshall.

Ava: Thank you. I found her moments interesting. I'm sorry but C.I. and are taking notes and I'm not sure who made the point about people that played in the tour band, but I would agree that they had something worth sharing. I'm not sure that many other people did. And in my mind, you could leave out Denny's remarks, all of them, and the book would lose nothing. I don't know if he did too many drugs to remember, if it's too many years, if he doesn't want to talk about it, but his quotes were pretty much useless historically and they weren't interesting to read.

Mike: Agreed. If it's something that happened in the studio, Denny doesn't seem to have a clue. The producer --

C.I.: Lou Adler.

Mike: And the other guy --

C.I.: Bones Howe?

Mike: Yeah, they have some memories. The guys playing the instruments have some memories. Michelle can tell you Paul Simon dropped in during the recording of "12:30 (Young Girls Are Coming to the Canyon)" but Denny's just so vague. I was really disappointed with him and read through him quickly about half-way through the book because I'd grasped that Denny had nothing of interest to share.

Jess: Your parents are fans of the group. Did they see you reading the book?

Mike: Yeah and Dad's reading it right now with Ma waiting semi-patiently. It's really a great book.

Jim: And we should note that there are tons of voices, tons of people weighing in. This was really a huge undertaking for Matthew Greenwald and, like Dona, I think he did an amazing job with this book.

Cedric: I think we all enjoyed reading it and would all recommend it.

Kat: The group is connected to that time period in the sixties, where politics and statements became a part of music. You knew they were against the war, the Mamas and the Papas, even before you heard them speak. They stood out from the beginning visually and they had the chops to back up a career worth honoring. They're also one of the few groups that was gender integrated without someone being a sibling. The Mamas weren't backup singers, they were just as important to the sound as the Papas. It's easy to pick out Cass' amazing vocals and think, "Oh it's Cass and backup singers" but each member contributed to the whole and that's what made it so amazing vocally. You're looking at a very brief time that they're recording together, basically three years and not a full three years. That they left their mark testifies to the power of their talents. The book's neither attempting to smear the group nor to treat them as saints. It's an even handed look and a highly interesting book.

Jim: And that sums up the book and the group so we'll go out on that. I'll add, per Dona, that we'll do our "a note to readers" later today. We've been so focused on the book discussion, we haven't been posting the completed entries and are now rushing to catch up. Everyone's tired and then some.

Dona: Stop, Jim. Wally wants to say something and he hasn't spoken that much in this discussion.

Wally: I just wanted to add that the book reproduces the eulogy that Lou Adler read, for John Phillips, and that I enjoyed the discography which didn't just list the songs but actually provided information.

Jim: Good point. It's a great read, Go Where You Wanna Go, and it's a strong resource.