Jess: This isn't a roundtable. I watched the latest OLAY & LOLO and thought it might make a good roundtable but the only one else who'd watched it was C.I. So this is just a discussion between us. Here's the video.
Jess: Okay. So Lolo is Alex Peter and Olay is Olayemi Olurin. In the video, they discuss a number of things but it was the social media aspect I thought worth talking about. Olay has stepped away from social media. I don't do a lot of social media. I learned she was off social media from a post at THE COMMON ILLS on July 3rd, in fact. It's been very upsetting for her and very time consuming. So what are your thoughts on that C.I.?
C.I.: I can't answer all of that in one response. That's several different issues. I'll throw out something to start and then we can move onto other aspects. She's been getting a lot of online abuse and you can't be a woman online without knowing what that's like. There seems to be a greater attitude or belief that you can say anything to a woman online but you don't do that to a man. The whole Jill Biden needs to tell Joe to drop out, for example, I called that out two weeks ago, I think. What is this nonsense? If your problem's Joe Biden, it's Joe Biden. But there is this attitude that you can threaten women and you can bully them and you can savage them. If you think about, it's always been that way online and it's people who got prominence early on that encouraged that and that fed it. Bob Somerby did some good work, some so-so work and some really bad work. But as I started pointing out over 15 years -- almost 20, where does the time go? -- anyway, years ago, men make mistakes but women are evil; men can redeem themselves, but women rot in hell. That's how he has run that site and helped set up the pattern that women still have to deal with today. A female reporter or journalist or head on TV gets something wrong and is is felony -- a crime that can only result in capital punishment. Tim Russert, while he was alive? Five weeks after he makes the same error a woman does, Tim can be brought back into the fold. True of every man Bob covered. They always have the shot a redemption that's denied the women. So, just in terms of the attacks she faces online, I do get Olay's point there.
Jess: So that's general. Specifically, she doesn't see the point of social media. I agree with that, honestly. I'm not -- and have never been -- on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Tik-Tok or whatever. When I was in college, MySpace was big. I wasn't even on that. I have no interest in it. I'm sure it's good for some people but the only time I think about Twitter is when we do a Tweet of the week here at THIRD. You?
C.I.: I'm on Twitter as THE COMMON ILLS. I'm not on Twitter otherwise. I have no interest in social media. Let me take longer than I planned by the way. In June, for the first time, I learned that you could see if people were following you. That's how little I use Twitter. When that was explained to me, I went and clicked follow on everyone who had followed me because that's supposed to be the polite thing to do. I didn't do that with THE COMMON ILLS. Meaning I never did link trades. I don't know why anyone would want to follow that Twitter account -- which doesn't even highlight stuff going up at THE COMMON ILLS -- but it was kind of them so I did follow almost everyone. I did not follow my CAA agent. I did call my agent and say, "Unfollow me immediately. My support for Palestinians will cause a problem for you and CAA." But the whole reason I got on Twitter is because of Paul Rudnick whom I loved before I ever met. He'd just published his first novel and ROLLLING STONE interviewed him and he did a devastating and hilarious take down of 'novelist' Patti Davis. He is very funny in person as well. But I got that first novel, SOCIAL DISEASE and talked it up but didn't do so enough, there were other things going on. So that was the 80s. All this time later, he's hilarious on Twitter and now I know him and TCI on Twitter was really just started to amplify him. I amplify other friends as well -- of course, Diana Ross. There are people who live on Twitter -- and anyone signed with CAA is 'encouraged' to be a social media personality. People are cast in roles over other people sometimes due to their number of social media followers. And that's nonsense because all social media can do is help get the word out. It can't sell tickets, it can't make people watch a TV show.
Jess: Alyssa Milano tries to a queen of social media and no one watched her NETFLIX or anything else she does. They're just agreeing with her on politics or whatever. They're not even fans of her work so there's no real pay off.
C.I.: I would agree with that.
Jess: And I think that's what Olay was trying to explain to Lolo about when he was talking about his book that he's hoping to sell.
C.I.: Right. People who follow you on Twitter for free aren't necessarily going to spend money. That's true of TV actors as well. You may be very popular on broadcast or cable TV. But that doesn't people are going to spend money on a ticket and actually get out and drive to a theater to see you in a film.
Jess: I hope everyone streams the video but if they don't, Lolo's got a book, a novel, and he's bothered because he does have followers but when he tries to work the book to get it published, his feedback is generally to write a book instead about the topics he covers online. And his first problem is that people don't necessarily buy your book because they follow you online.
C.I.: Right. And he's bothered by the fact that they want X amount of an option fee should one come about -- should a studio or production company option the novel to turn it into a film or series. I don't remember if he was bothered by the money or not. But here's the thing, in the entertainment industry -- which does include the publishing industry -- you're mainly asked to do what they already know you can do. You were an action hero but want to do a drama? Uh, do this action film for us and we'll give you a little development money -- just seed money -- to work on that other idea and see if you can shape into something we might be interested in. And in terms of money, untested you never make as much at the start as you will on your second and third efforts. You don't really have a quote to demand because you're not established.
Jess: Can you give an example?
C.I.: Sure. Let's do one everyone can grasp. Barbra Streisand got a million dollars for a film before she'd ever been on the big screen in a movie. HELLO DOLLY. So any actress could have gotten that, right? Wrong. Barbra got screwed by COLUMBIA RECORDS starting out -- and that was partly due to wanting artistic control. But she got screwed. And she became a huge seller, her albums brought a lot of money in for the company. Her first Broadway play, I CAN GET IT FOR YOU WHOLESALE, did not pay her a lot of money. During all of that, she is touring the country with concerts and she's becoming established on TV as a guest star on talk shows and variety shows and she's the biggest thing in the world of pop culture and huge media-getting personality. She gets a Tony nomination for I CAN GET IT FOR YOU WHOLESALE and is the only reason that the show sold tickets, she turned a supporting role into a show stopping performance. She wants the role of Fanny Brice in Broadway's FUNNY GIRL. At this point, she is an Emmy nominee, a Tony nominee from a play that she carried, a best selling albums artist and a two time Grammy winner and she still doesn't get paid for FUNNY GIRL what she's worth. So when she's not sure if she wants to make HELLO DOLLY, she was happy to walk away from it, didn't need it, so she and Marty Erlichman said, "A million dollars and she'll do it." Not expecting that the offer would be accepted. It was. And that's also another point -- one we've talked about frequently here -- The Power Of No. If you're not ready to say "no," you're never going to get what you're worth. But what confused me about Lolo is why doesn't he self-publish? He doesn't want an agency taking this percent for the deal and he doesn't want to give out any money he might be paid if someone put an option on the novel. It's the 21st century, why doesn't he just self publish. He could completely skip physical copies and just make it a digital book on KINDELL, for example. He can promote it on his own social media -- most first time authors with publishing houses don't get a big promotion push unless the book's seen as an easy sale. It would make more sense for him to do that. Look at Matteo. NETFLIX wasn't interested in Matteo Lane's comedy for a special. What did Matteo do? He made his own and put it on YOUTUBE. He now has three of them in about 12 months or so and I know the first one easily sailed past one million views.
Jess: That's true. 3.6 million views on the special that posted a year ago. 897,000 on the second one and 681,000 on the one that went up a month ago. Back to Olay, so will it hurt her being off social media?
C.I.: I don't see why. She states the two or so weeks so far have allowed her to come up with ideas and plans for other work that she needs to do -- YOUTUBE videos, columns, a book -- and Alice Walker talks about the need to refill the well. You've got to pause for that. You can't just let it pour out without refilling.
Jess: Says the person who writes daily at THE COMMON ILLS for how many years now and does a media piece with Ava every week here since 2005 and does all those columns for the community newsletters.
C.I.: And I'm exhausted and forever afraid nothing's going to come out, that the well's going to be completely dry. It's smart of her to do this -- forget doing it for her own sanity which is reason enough. But if it's letting her refill the well that's a reason for it.
Jess: I was a little surprised by the way she talked about her audience. And I know she doesn't fill that they're her audience, the people who are expecting this from her or that. What do you think there
C.I.: When you realize how much you've lost because you're now a known, it can be very disturbing. And I think that's what she's discussing.
Jess: You've not done that offline or online.
C.I.: Offline, we're talking about becoming known decades ago. I never refused an autograph. I still don't. I knew those people made me and I was fortunate that they did. But those people spent money. It's a different level of fame. Olay's talking about people who want to use her to increase their own fame and about people who want her to be something she can't be. On that last part, if I were talking to her, I would point out the good part about the people who want her to be something she can't be: They see your strength and it inspires them. You provide a lot to their lives that you're not realizing. I love Goldie for always being aware of her audience -- much more so than me with mine. DECEIVED? I love that movie. But she notes that people would come up to her and tell her it wasn't what they expected from a Goldie Hawn film. And they meant comedies that made them laugh and gave them peace and joy. In a crazy world -- and it's only gotten crazier -- providing peace and joy -- not to mention laughter -- is a great gift. And Goldie realizes that and looks at comment like that as a positive. I have an audience, I'm not talking about as "C.I." because they liked me and I like them back. I'm grateful to them. When you're not, ask Tori Amos, they will leave.
Jess: Talk about that. I was hoping you'd use an example of someone who didn't appreciate their audience.
C.I.: There's nothing something sadder than a fifty-something year-old woman trying to recruit her daughter's age group as her new fans after having pissed on the people who were with her from the start. She can't talk rationally anymore and everything is Tash or Tash and her boyfriend or Tash and her friends. How stupid are you, woman? No teens are dying to hear from your 50-year-old mind. The ones who did care about your lived experience that could be informing your art are people you ran off. The ones in the south, you insulted. At concerts that they paid to attend. You took their money and insulted them onstage by -- when you thought they weren't responsive enough -- playing a mocking "I wish I were in the land of cotton . . ." Really? She called her audience out as racists. As though racists were going to show up a Tori concert -- Tori the controversial woman who took a pig to her tit to nurse in a photo for her BOYS FOR PELE album. There was her tantrum at the end of the 90s over fans smoking -- being permitted to smoke -- at her concerts. There was her presenting as a feminist but refusing to be part of Lilith Fair and then, worse, insulting LF, the conflicts she had on the joint-tour with Alanis -- where Tori wanted to treat her like the opening act when Alanis was outselling Tori -- and her refusal to work with women in her band. Grasp that the only woman she really works with in her long musical career is her daughter who is a nepo-baby and has yet to demonstrate any real talent. Lilith and the Alanis problems cut her audience in half. You can see that in the album sales. By the time of TO VENUS AND BACK, she's no longer able to sell a million albums in the US.
Jess: TO VENUS is a platinum album.
C.I.: If it sold a million copies, it would be double platinum. Multi-disc albums are certified by sales and the number of discs. It's a two disc album, so platinum status on that album means it sold 500,000. She had four platinum albums in a row and then 1999's TO VENUS broke the streak and 500,000 has been the best she could do -- the best she could hope for. Her follow up to TO VENUS was STRANGE LITTLE GIRLS and it didn't even get 500,000 because she's supposed to be a feminist but that whole album was cover songs and cover songs written by men at that. 12 tracks, not one song written by a woman. The follow up was SCARLET'S WALK -- her singing her own songs and it sold 500,000 and was a gold record. By pissing off her audience, that was now that she could get even with a great album like SCARLET'S WALK -- her last classic album. So she apparently decided to abuse her remaining audience, to punish the ones who stuck around. THE BEEKEEPER had maybe four songs worth hearing. And it didn't even sell 300,00 copies. Each album got worse and the music more downbeat and tired. When she finally returned to 'form' musically with 2014 release, it wasn't just that it was too late, it was that the lyrics were garbage. I'm sure her daughter Tash found them intriguing but those of us who long ago grew out of "Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pale of water" were left with the reality that she couldn't even write an interesting lyric anymore, let alone a good one. She has no imagery left in her and it's the most simplistic word choices in the world. She abused her audience and when they turned on her, she abused her art. And you see it with each studio album up as the sales drop and drop and drop until 2021 rolls around and her album only sales 10,000 copies in the US. She was very talented once, maybe she still is? She needs to grow up and realize she's not her daughter's age, she's lived a life and she should have something to say about it.
Jess: Kat's going to love that. She'll probably repost it at her site. Are you going to pull it before we get ready to publish.
C.I.: I think Ava, Betty and I are the only ones who've never pulled something we've said from a transcript piece.
