Roundtable

Jim: Roundtable time again. We'll be talking about Iraq, independent media and who knows what other topics.  Remember our e-mail address is thethirdestatesundayreview@yahoo.com but you can also use common_ills@yahoo.com.  Participating in our roundtable are  The Third Estate Sunday Review's Dona, Ty, Jess, Ava, and me, Jim; Rebecca of Sex and Politics and Screeds and Attitude; Betty of Thomas Friedman Is a Great Man; C.I. of The Common Ills and The Third Estate Sunday Review; Kat of Kat's Korner (of The Common Ills); Cedric of Cedric's Big Mix; Mike of Mikey Likes It!; Elaine of Like Maria Said Paz); Ruth of Ruth's Report; Trina of Trina's Kitchen; Wally of The Daily Jot; Marcia of SICKOFITRDLZ; Stan of Oh Boy It Never Ends; Isaiah of The World Today Just Nuts and Ann of Ann's Mega Dub. Betty's kids did the illustration. You are reading a rush transcript.







Jim (Con't):  First up, let's start with you, Trina.  You wrote "My sympathies are with the Iraqi people." Talk about that.

Trina: Sure.  Jim Fitton has been in the news since March.  Last week, he was tried in Iraq.  Found guilty.  Sentenced for a maximum of 15 years.  He is a geologist and his family wanted us to know -- in March and in April that he wouldn't break the law because he was so smart and he would never try to steal artifacts from Iraq.  Then it became he didn't know any better!!!!  I don't care.  He's a grown man who went into a war torn country by choice, he grabbed things he knew were not his and that he had not purchased and got caught at the airport as he was trying to leave with them.  His family insists that they were 'just' shards.  They're centuries old.  And if they're so unimportant, why did he want to take them home?

Jess: That's a good point.  He placed some value on them or he wouldn't have taken them.  And it's insulting that not only did he take the items but, having stolen them, his family and his supporters want to insist that they aren't important, that they are ''just shards.''  Your father's stolen the items and now you want to be even more insulting and tell the country what the stolen property is and that's unimportant because it's "just shards."

Elaine: The xenophobia just reeks.

Trina: Agreed.  And Iraq has a long history of seeing its antiquities stolen.  That's not a hidden story.  So the man -- supposedly educated -- should have known better.  And he and his family, as C.I. has pointed out, should have long ago been publicly apologizing.  He might have gotten a shorter sentence.

Dona: He was supposed to get the death penalty.

Trina: Right.  And the minute the sentence is announced -- instead of a death penalty, 15 years, the whining British family that's been insisting we had to save their father from execution launches into, "How dare they sentence him for 15 years!"

Cedric: Not even a pause to say, "We're so glad he wasn't sentenced to die."

Trina: They look so ungrateful and they're so damn stupid.  Let's say my son Mike was in Fitton's place.  I wouldn't be offering the 'just shards' defense.  I'd be saying something like, "On behalf of my family, I apologize for what happened.  Clearly, this is seen as disrespectful to the people of Iraq.  We apologize and we are sorry.  It was wrong for Mike to have taken those items."  Why would I do that?  He's convicted.  He's not getting out on appeal.  Give it up, not in Iraq.  

Mike: Not in Iraq on a good day and especially not in the midst of the political stalemate when overturning the conviction would make Iraqis even more outraged at their courts.

Trina: Good point.  So what we would need to do, if this were Mike, would be to humbly go before the press and make statements of remorse.  That's the only thing might work.  That's why C.I. noted it.  And they don't want to do that.  Your father's convicted.  He can serve 7 years or he might be able to get out earlier if your family would show remorse and appeal to the Iraqi people.

Jim: Thank you.  Ty, you have an e-mail.

Ty: Right.  Ray Dunlap e-mailed and wanted a reaction to THE DAILY BEAST's apology to John Paul Mac Isaac for saying he had stolen the Hunter Biden laptop.  Ruth, you cover the Bidens a lot, so let me toss to you.

Ruth: Okay.  I think you should have tossed to C.I.  When this story broke, the first two weeks, C.I. went over this over and over in the Iraq snapshots.  She noted repeatedly that the laptop was not stolen.  I believe she made the argument that a repair shop is not a storage facility and that if you fail to return to pick up and pay for your laptop being repaired, the store owns it.  They are not required to hold it for you.  Jonathan Turley, Glenn Greenwald and others were covering the laptop, C.I. was the only one raising that issue repeatedly.  

Dona: And she did so because she knows basic journalism: If the property is stolen, you can't have it.  The Pentagon Papers?  Had to have copies.  Watergate?  Needed a copy.  Stolen property is not supposed to be anything you can use for reputable coverage.  And, as she pointed out then, those saying it was stolen, those press outlets saying that, knew they were lying and were using that lie to try to hush the story up.

Ruth: Right.  THE DAILY BEAST can no longer hush up the story and they are now being sued so there is no real cost to them to apologize.  It is meaningless and they should be sued.  And I hope they lose in court.

Jim: Ruth recently wrote "If Hunter's name was Roger, he'd be crucified by the MSM by now" where she notes that if Roger Clinton had half the scandals that Hunter Biden has, the media would have crucified him by now.

Marcia: That is true.  She specifically noted, though, that he has a 'sugar brother' paying off millions he owes and paying for his monthly bills as well and that Roger would have been nailed to the cross for that.

Stan: As would Billy Carter or Marvin Bush.

Isaiah: She's right.  Stan's right too.  But, yeah, Hunter has gotten a pass.  We know about the prostitutes, we know about the drug use, at a time when some are calling for gun control we know that he obtained a gun a few years ago by lying on his application -- a federal crime.  We know he is under investigation by a grand jury.  We know that no sooner did his brother Beau die then he started screwing Beau's wife, we know that Hunter's wife learned of that affair because one of their daughter's saw texts about it, we know he's getting fatter and going bald -- wonder if Lena Dunham still finds him sexy -- and we know that although he tried to pretend he didn't know his baby mama in court, she was on the payroll for his company for a year.  We know that he did anything -- including lying -- to avoid paying child support.  Crack addict, dead beat dad, man who asks strippers to put dildos up his ass, unethical business dealings with Ukraine and China, having sex with his sister-in-law, there's so much there -- all of it repugnant. 

Rebecca: Just two things off that long list would have been enough for the media to be putting Roger Clinton on trial.  But they bend over backwards for Hunter.  And, yeah, he is going bald -- reminding me of Joni Mitchell's "Just Like This Train:" "Dreaming of the pleasure I'm going to have watching your hairline recede, my vain darling."

 

 Mike: Watch it, Rebecca, Jada Pinkett will order Will Smith to slap you for that.

Rebecca: To be sure!

Jim: Now let's talk about so-called independent media.  I'm going to toss for the summary or overview to Ann because she is a Green.  Ann?

Ann: Independent media.  In the early '00s, we were told it was DEMOCRACY NOW! and that it was FAIR's COUNTERSPIN and that it was THE PROGRESSIVE and THE NATION and various PACIFICA RADIO stations and they all proved that they were independent.  Various blogs did as well.  DEMOCRACY NOW! with the war on Libya, for example, went all in with empire.  They'd also dropped Iraq war resisters in 2006 to avoid embarrassing the Democratic Party and soon they'd drop the Iraq War for the same reason.  The Green Party convention?  If we were lucky we'd get a paragraph from Amy Goodman in her DEMOCRACY NOW headlines whereas the Democrats got a full week of coverage from Amy every time they held a convention. CJR and COUNTERSPIN were just damn hypocrites and there are far too many examples so I'll just note that they both jump on any conflict of interest stories -- especially if the reporter is sleeping with a member of the government.  They elected to ignore Gina Chon's affair and then marriage to Brett McGurk.  Despite the fact that THE WALL STREET JOURNAL fired her because she let Brett, a US government employee, vet her copy while they started their affair in Iraq.  Brett had been Bully Boy Bush's boy then but when the news leaked out he was now Barack's boy and the 'independent' media didn't want to call out Barack.  Before an asshole from CJR e-mails about this roundtable, yes, you did finally cover it.  Only after you were covering some reporter covering a fire department, or something, while she was sleeping with a fire officer.  When you did that, with no sense of irony at all, this community's Martha called you out in the comments.  You then posted, noting that Martha had called you out, a weak ass item on Brett and Gina.  THE PROGRESSIVE is nothing but a leftist lifestyle magazine -- no real issues, just lifestyle coverage.  And THE NATION is just a sad joke as it employs known liars like John Nichols.  A number of us trusted these outlets and were repeatedly let down by them.

Wally: And there are so many more examples.  Including the fact that they avoided the sexist attacks on Hillary Clinton in 2008.  As Ava and C.I. noted, for example, despite being a weekly program, COUNTERSPIN ignored the sexism week after week until finally 

 

One of the most disturbing features of the media coverage of the Democratic presidential race is the way racism and sexism have been expressed. CNN viewers were treated to one pundit explanation that people might call Hillary Clinton a bitch because well isn't that just what some women are. Not everyone's so out in the open. MSNBC host Chris Matthews opened his May 18th show wondering how Barack Obama would [. . .]

Wally (Con't): COUNTERSPIN went on and on after the part I've stopped on -- but only about racism.  They actually had covered racism throughout the primaries beginning 2007.  They continued it through 2008.  But the only time, in those two years, that they covered sexism was that single sentence above.  As Ava and C.I. noted, "The first time this year CounterSpin can note any of the sexism, it's when Hillary's called a bitch and it produces a single sentence in which the 'pundit' isn't even named."  They're fake asses.  They're like John Nichols running to DEMOCRACY NOW! when AP reports that Barack's campaign has told Canada that the NAFTA talk isn't for real and that, if he becomes president, Barack will not work to overturn NAFTA.  Barack's not who the voters think and John Nichols can't let that sink in, so he goes on DEMOCRACY NOW! where he lies that he's going to have a story published shortly explaining that this isn't true and that it was Hillary's campaign!!! There was no story to be published because AP was correct.  But John Nichols lied long enough to take the heat off Barack. They're whores.

Ann: And we were their tricks.  We were the idiots giving them money.  So they could lie to us.  Now we've got another wave of 'independent media' -- send money now!!!! Excuse us if we don't want to pay off whores again.  CONVO COUCH, Jackson Hinkle, Sabby Sabs, Jimmy Dore, HARD LENS MEDIA and so many more engaging in a circle jerk and trying to pass off as independent media.

Marcia: Let me note something since my childhood Kate Jackson crush was noted by me and by my cousin Stan, I belonged to the Kate Jackson fan club.  I paid five dollars -- my parents did -- I think it was.  I got a welcome letter, I was supposed to get regular newsletters for a year -- I only got one -- and I got an autographed photo of Kate -- which was more than worth the five bucks.  I bring that up because I've been in a fan club.  I'm not anymore and stop passing off fan clubs as independent media.  Sabby Sabs looks like an idiot as she prostates herself before every White man from Jimmy Dore to Jackson Hinkle.  And whether or not Jimmy's been dissed by this person or banned by Twitter or -- I'm not in the Jimmy Dore fan club.  I don't want to be.  He has his own program.  If he has problems, he can discuss them there.  We don't need 'reports' -- fan club updates, actually -- from Sabby and HARD LENS MEDIA and everybody else.  It's pathetic.  Every week, the drama queen's in another tiff and Sabby and others do segments on it instead of real news.

Elaine: None of them cover Iraq.  They've got all the time in the world to do their D-listing coverage of celebrity Jimmy Dore but they can't cover Iraq.  US troops are still there on the ground.  As we're doing this roundtable, MEHR NEWS agency is reporting, "Iraqi news sources on Sunday reported that a military logistics convoy belonging to the army of the United States was targeted in Iraq."  But, hey, Ryan Grim said something that hurt Jimmy's feeling so let's file an E! celebrity report on that instead of focusing on real news and real issues.

Cedric: That one really was the last one for me. When all these so-called 'independent' media outlets started filing 'reports' on Ryan Grim.  Nobody participating in this roundtable is a fan of Ryan Grim.  But we do appreciate that the program for THE HILL that he's apart of has done some very good coverage of very real issues and that has included some of the COVID coverage Grim led on.  I'm not a fan of his.  But I also don't see him as the enemy.  Who's an enemy to me?  Any program that promotes Scott Ritter.

Betty: Preach!

Cedric: Jimmy Dore did.  Jackson Hinkle did.  CONVO COUCH did.  Richard Medhurst did.  And lots and lots of others.  It was outrageous to watch them bring him on their programs and slobber over him -- UN weapons expert, author -- all the credits they gave him.  Except the one he deserves: Pedophile.  Three times arrested.  Now a registered sex offender because he went to prison for it.  Now I'm like C.I., bring on who you want, but be honest.  If you're bringing on a convicted pedophile, you note that.  If you don't, you're giving him your stamp of approval and when someone gets hurt because of it, you are an accomplice.  Shame on you.  It's disgusting.

Kat: And they are disgusting, Cedric.  They lie to their audience about Scott Ritter and they lie to their audience being independent.  There are real stories that need coverage.  Jimmy Dore is not one of them.  When they're all pimping Jimmy the same week, you know that they're not independent.  There's a lot going on behind the scenes that the people begging money from have no idea about.  Don't send them a penny.  

Stan: I won't.  If they've got a pretty much daily program and they can't note the Iraq War -- the ongoing Iraq War -- I don't need to hear from them.  They're not offering news, they're doing con jobs and wasting our time promoting their friends.  F**k you all posing as 'independent media.'  I'm serious.  I'm tired of the fake assery.  Could you imagine if, in the last six weeks alone, they'd given as much time to Mumia Abu-Jamal?  That's a real story.  He remains in prison.  His is a story that needs to be amplified.  Segments on how Ryan Grim misunderstood Jimmy's joke or whatever nonsense, that's not news.  And also to be clear, THE HILL and BREAKING POINTS do real news segments.  No, they're not as left as I would like them to be.  But they're not wasting 20 minutes on what someone said on Twitter about Jimmy Dore.  So maybe before you slam Krystal or Ryan on your own program, you take a look at your own program and notice how little work you're doing.  And Sabby Sabs, do some damn work.  Stop covering entertainment because you think you know stuff and you don't.  Whenever you talk about music or movies and TV, you are so wrong.  You don't know the context, you don't know the history and sometimes you even get the people wrong.  Stop.  For the love of God, Sabby, stop.

Betty:  Yeah, she hasn't turned out to be who I hoped she would be either.  But Ann got that right immediately.  Ann's long called her out for fact-free attacks on Howie Hawkins.

Ann: The fact that she knows nothing about Howie has never stopped her from attacking him.  For those who don't know, he's an activist and he was the Green Party's 2020 presidential candidate.

Jess: And as Ann often points out, after the 2020 election, he did not do what every Green Party presidential candidate before him did: Vanish.  He has worked very week since then posting at least one video about Green issues -- at least one.  Who the hell is she to slam Howie Hawkins when she doesn't even know what he's done or what he's doing.

Ann: She does it because, like Jimmy Dore, she's expressed the belief that the Green Party should have given the nomination to right-wing Jesse Ventura.  Jesse didn't run for it, but he should be gifted with it.  They have no ethics and they prove it when they say that.  They're calling for someone who didn't even run for the nomination to be given it.  How is that democracy?  It's not.  They're pathetic.

Kat: And I am sick of them shoving Jimmy Dore down my throat.  I actually had no opinion of him one way or the other.  I don't watch him.  I've never watched him.  But this non-stop coverage of 'poor Jimmy Dore' has made me loathe him.  They're like a cult and they make me hate this person that I don't even know or even know his work.  It's enough already.

Jim: Okay, Betty, on the list of topics, you put down Iraq.  Not sure what issue you're taking on but I'm tossing to you.

Betty: Thanks.  If you've missed it, for at least two weeks now, Iraq's been getting some attention from the western media.  Why?  A city, that might be the ancient city of Zakhiku -- dating from 1550 to 1350 BC -- has been discovered -- a place, several buildings.  And this is resulted in giddy coverage.  And maybe it deserves that because of the discovery.  But the coverage should include the reality that this not good news.  This is the result of climate change.  The city, over 3,400 years old, has only been discovered because climate change is impacting Iraq and the water level of the Tigris River has gotten dangerously low.  Again, cover the discovery.  But at least equal space to the fact that we're seeing the effects of climate change.  As much I appreciate the discovery of the city, I'm more concerned with the Iraqi people who are about go through a very hot summer and do so facing water shortages and drought.

Mike: Very good point, Betty.

Jim: C.I., you wanted to note a bill.  And for those participating by phone, C.I.'s finishing up note taking and I'm waiting for Ava to start taking notes.  Their note taking is how we get these transcripts.  Okay, C.I.

C.I.: I just wanted to note, from Jordan Williams and Rachel Frazin report for THE HILL, "The Senate is set to vote this week on the Sgt. First Class Heath Robinson Honoring our PACT Act to expand healthcare and other benefits for a new generation of veterans who were exposed to toxic chemicals. The bill would largely benefit those who served after 9/11 and were exposed to toxic substances during that time."

Jim: So if it passes the Senate?

C.I.: It differs from the House bill so it would have to get approval from the House as well.  For those new to this issue, I would encourage you to visit Burn Pits 360.  I would also report that we've been here before repeatedly and, hopefully, this is the time that something actually gets done.

Jim: Thank you.  Ava, we're reposting the piece you've done at Ann's "Michele Dauber, let's play your game (Ava)" and I wanted to ask about the feedback you've gotten on it, if any?

Ava: Some are appalled by what I wrote.  Good.  My whole point is I'm appalled by what Dauber is saying about Camille Vasquez.  I'm giving her a taste of the treatment she's giving Camille.  I also stand by my remarks that if your child is struggling, you cut back and focus on your child.  Jess and I have a child together.  If our daughter was struggling, it's our job to put on hold other things in our life.  I know a lot more than I wrote and I couched many statements as questions -- even though I know the answers.  Dauber should have protected her daughter.  She didn't.  She got three or four degrees instead, while her daughter needed her, she clerked instead, she served different organizations and her daughter was suicidal.  The tragic outcome of that isn't a surprise to anyone and shouldn't have been to Dauber.  If Jess or I ever fail our daughter like that, please call us out.

Jim: Some were appalled?

Ava: About 11% of the e-mails according to Martha and Shirley.  The rest either got what I was doing or don't like Dauber so they were glad to read it.

Jim: Okay.  We're going to wrap up with that.  This is a rush transcript.