Jim: We have several topics that may come up or we may end up just sticking to the big one. Participating in this roundtable are The Third Estate Sunday Review's Dona, Ty, Jess, Ava, and me, Jim; Rebecca of Sex and Politics and Screeds and Attitude; Betty of Thomas Friedman Is a Great Man; C.I. of The Common Ills and The Third Estate Sunday Review; Kat of Kat's Korner (of The Common Ills); Cedric of Cedric's Big Mix; Mike of Mikey Likes It!; Elaine of Like Maria Said Paz); Ruth of Ruth's Report; Trina of Trina's Kitchen; Wally of The Daily Jot; Marcia of SICKOFITRDLZ; Stan of Oh Boy It Never Ends; Isaiah of The World Today Just Nuts and Ann of Ann's Mega Dub. Betty's kids did the illustration. This is a rush transcript. Ty, we've delinked from The Confluence. You explain about that in a piece this edition, but give us a few remarks right now.
Ty: You stand for what you believe in or you don't. It's that basic and, Jim, I'm sure many others can talk about that aspect. I work for a director, I work for an Academy Award winning film director and we discussed this last week. So let me talk about Pig Willy's website that The Confluence is so fond of, specifically, let me talk about his choice to illustrate a story -- one on Stanley Kubrick -- with a nude woman. The most iconic image from Kubrick's films would either be the red dot on the screen or the simians from 2001. Neither image would have provided female nudity, however.
Ava: Agreed. Agreed on the images, agreed on everything. Pig Willy wants to insist that anyone objecting has a problem. Riverdaughter wants to play dumb and her little minions want to delete comments objecting to Pig Willy trying to market his bad writing with lurid T&A photos. If you're writing about Kurbrick, you're obvious image would be one of the director. You also can go to an iconic image. Neither was good enough for Pig Willy who just wanted to show some tits and then wants to pretend like everyone else is a prude and has a problem. No, you ugly piece of s**t, no one's a prude, we just don't care for dirty old men exploiting women. I've read Ty's piece and I'll just note he spoke to one of C.I.'s friends who did do nude scenes in seventies films and who really puts this into perspective in terms of the women who are doing those scenes and what their understanding was then. Pig Willy has no right to try to 'enhance' his bad, little writing on the backs of women. And he acknowledges that this is what he's doing in his comments when he whines that no one would want to see him naked. The obvious implication is: "I can increase my web traffic by using nude women." He's a purveyor of filth and a user of women.
Jim: In last week's "Editorial: Women's rights thrown under the bus," we touched on this topic. It's not a new one, in fact, this site's more or less been built on topics like these. In November, we were calling out The Nation for accepting a series of T&A ads, see ""The Nation endorses and amplifies sexism." The response to that, from one woman at The Nation, was laughable and Dona handled the response in "Hypocrisy here at Third (Dona)." I want to Dona to talk about that because, if you disagree with Pig Willy, you're a "prude," according to him. If you don't think his post on films by Kubrick needed a photo of a topless woman with erect nipples jutting out, you're a prude. Dona?
Dona: That's really a hilarious accusation and a lot of dirty old pervs have taken to that one over the years. At Third, we called out The Nation for taking a series of ads from a company that was allegedly 'socially responsible' -- no surprise the two people running the company were major Barry O Kool-Aid drinkers which, right away, tells you their ideas of 'socially responsible' were hugely f**ked up. The 'socially responsible' ads, used clothed T&A. Used women asses -- more so than their breasts -- to sell their bad product. And when we objected, a woman at The Nation wanted to e-mail to insist that we were hypocrites because we have an illustration that's a painting of a man in a bathing suit with a stamp -- for "Mailbag" -- and that proves blah blah blah. That proves nothing. That's an illustration, built around a pun, it's not a T&A photo. And, as noted there and many times elsewhere here, we really don't make an issue of this unless you exploit women. If you're running T&A and Pec & Ass or maybe Cock & Ass photos of men too, then you're an equal opportunity offender and we don't really fret over it. However, there is a long history of the exploitation of women's bodies and that long history includes not just the profiting from them but also the denigration of women through this exploitation.
Stan: And let me jump in here to note that Pig Willy is a White man, a Rage-aholic, who can't stand being a White man. He feels he's being gypped as a result. That was came through loud and clear when he ripped me apart online and started screaming that Affirmative Action wasn't needed. So a man who doesn't see a need for Affirmative Action isn't a man who's going to give a damn about exploiting women.
Wally: Stan said several things there but the one I want to emphasize here is: Rage-aholic. I have no idea why someone so unbalanced and so hostile would be embraced by Riverdaughter and her minions but I damn well know that men like that are to be called out, not apologized for, not ignored. Mike did a thing on this last week -- pretty much everybody did -- and he highlighted the sewer that Pig Willy runs where comments include 'punchlines' like this: "A woman who won't do what's she's told." This is a sewer and it's filled with women hating puss. It needs to be drained.
Rebecca: Yeah, the thing is, a visit to that website is a -- frequently the web equivalent of a strange man exposing himself to you if not attempting to rape you. Cedric and Wally chose to address it last week ["It's not complicated" and "THIS JUST IN! THE GIFT OF LOGIC!"] by quoting Gloria Steinem, "A woman reading Playboy feels a little like a Jew reading a Nazi manual." And I don't feel that's hyperbole. Pig Willy will try to insist what he's done is completely natural but it's not. And it's not about nudity. Let's clear that lie up right now. It's about power. It's about Pig Willy trying to rob women of power to make his own pathetic self feel empowered. So he does that by reducing women to nude boobs and nipples. There were many images he could have used, many infamous ones. Jack Nicholson -- clothed -- grinning crazily through the broken door from The Shining, for example. But it was never about, "This is an image you all know and it's from a Kubrick film." It was always about Pig Willy's own impotence and his need to feel better by humiliating women.
Betty: Support! We've talked about this forever. We've explored it so many times. But we'll do it one more time because Pig Willy's a damn liar. Here's reality for Black Americans. We surf the web, we think we find a website that we're welcome at, everyone's raving over some politicians, we leave a comment noting that so-and-so, a Democrat, did this or that which hurt Black Americans, and the same website that welcomed us prior quickly makes clear it's got a "No Blacks Allowed" sign ready to put in the front yard, or a "No Women Allowed," or both. Your website sends a message about who's welcome and who's not and when you're posting nude photos of women, you're making it clear that a large portion of people are not welcome and that, as Elaine said, you're running a locker room and not a website. And one more comment on that aspect, how many people use computers at work to surf? And because of your perversions anyone of them can be written up for their mistake in landing on your website? That's irresponsible and it is irresponsible of Riverdaughter to link to that site.
Elaine: Betty's correct. And someone needs to sketch out the Riverdaughter aspect of this because it will be lost otherwise.
Jess: I'll grab that. Pig Willy runs his latest T&A on a Friday. The following Monday, Riverdaughter does a post that includes an illustration by Pig Willy and praise, from Riverdaughter, for him. This led to multiple comments complaining that Riverdaughter was endorsing the sexist pig. The Clown and the other idiot moderators went on the delete all the comments except one. We get drug in because we link to The Confluence. So we hear about it in e-mails -- mainly from Confluceans who are appalled that Riverdaughter's so weak-ass she can't stand up against a sexist pig.
Elaine: Okay, I'll pick back up now. Riverdaughter, as a former Conflucian e-mailing my site declared, presents herself as "the Betty Friedan of the PUMA movement." And that so-called movement came about in response to the sexist attacks on Hillary's and the refusal of the media and Barack Obama to call those attacks out. So it's even more offensive when Riverdaughter refuses to call out someone for sexism and goes out of her way to excuse him.
Marcia: I heard that. In comments at my site and in e-mails. People are outraged that 'Mama Puma' would rather cover up for a sexist than call him out. It's considered an utter failure on Riverdaughter's part and an indication that the PUMA movement, as led by her, is a joke. It can't even stand up to a sexist in its midst? And they want lecture the media about sexism?
Trina: It goes to hypocrisy. And you're only good as your name. If you can't stand up, you're not worth listening to. If sexism is wrong only from some people, then you really aren't consistent and you really are infantile -- either because you're too scared to speak up or, more likely, because you're so vapid you've never come up with a core belief system.
Ruth: The latter is probably true in the case of Riverdaughter. I want to go back to points Rebecca made at her site. I want to point out that a number of women were offended several years ago when The Daily Kos had an ad of clothed women for a reality show and the ad was completely T&A. This led to one of the first waves of exodus from that site. Especially when the owner of the site dismissed criticism as something coming from "women's studies majors." Now people -- men and women -- were right to be offended that an allegedly 'liberal' site was running T&A ads. And people are right to be offended by Pig Willy's stunts. And in terms of Riverdaughter, for her to not only praise Pig Willy but allow her moderators to kill comments, to disappear them? That is disgusting and she is disgusting. She whined and whined about how she had to create her own site because people online were so mean but she lets her little thugs go through and purify her threads? She is a joke. She is not a feminist. She is a weak-willed ninny who refuses to stand up to a rage-aholic man who trashes women and trashes Affirmative-Action. And then the ninny wonders why so many people accuse her of being a Republican?
Ann: Well I find it disgraceful that any alleged Hillary supporter would embrace misogyny. But that's the reality for both Riverdaughter and Pig Willy. They embrace it. You call it out or you own it. You have to behave by the standards you set out. That's why we don't take Norman Solomon and others seriously these days. We judge them by the standards they preached. We do similarly with the PUMAs.
Jim: Ann, I want to come back to you near the end, to you and Jess. Anyone else on this topic? Kat? C.I.?
Kat: Sure. First, when it was brewing, I missed it. We had the week off and I dropped out. But Pig Willy and Riverdaughter and all her little punkettes want to act like this is no big deal. Where the hell have they lived for the last decades? Feminist theory has long covered the objetification of women and they want to play dumb? They want to pretend like it's a hang up on the part of other people? It's just ridiculous.
Jim: C.I., how about grabbing the prude aspect.
C.I.: Sure. My list of lovers is lengthy, legendary and ongoing. And I've been nude in front of the cameras. So, tiny dick Pig Willy, I don't know who you're calling a prude but, as usual, you don't know what the f**k you're talking about. The beggar boy's always got his hand out and always offering some 'reason' that falls apart if you pay attention. If you connect the dots suddenly you're left with the impression that Pig Willy is always working the grift. So it's no big surprise that someone like that would attempt to use women. In terms of Riverdaughter, her bully tried to shame a woman for modeling lingerie. For modeling lingerie. It supposedly said something dark and evil about her. It said she took part in a professional photography shoot. That's all it said. There was no reason to 'slut shame' that woman but The Confluence allowed it, Riverdaughter allowed it. It was, "This woman posed in underwear! And it says something about her character!" Well, Riverdaughter, Pig Willy elected to post an image -- not a photograph, the woman didn't pose for a photograph, that's not her in the image, it's a character -- out of context and to perv over it. And you can't call him out? You can attack a woman who poses in lingerie but you can't attack a pig who takes nude images from a film and posts them? What a hypocrite. What a liar. I don't have any use for her and I don't have any sympathy for her. I have sympathy for women who are exploited, not for women who allow other women to be exploited. If you're in a position of any kind of power and you're a woman, it is an obligation that you stand up for other women. Especially if you have that position because you've represented as an advocate for women. Riverdaughter's a failure and will remain so until she can call out sexism -- not just call it out when it comes from Barack but when it comes from her friends. When she can stand up for the rights of women even if it means calling out her 'friend' or risking public attacks from sexists in her 'own camp,' then she'll prove she has some sort of fortitude but, at present, she's just a little girl shuffling around in Mommy's shoes, play acting at being a grown woman.
Jim: Well said. Okay, two e-mails -- this topic is for Jess and Ann -- two e-mails came in this week pointing out all the Greens, by name, who publicly ridiculed then-Governor Sarah Palin for running as a vice presidential candidate. And both e-mails pointed out the hypocrisy of that ridicule coming from Green Party members. Want to tackle it?
Ann: Because of Rosa? Rosa's one of the reasons I voted for Ralph Nader. Rosa Clemente was never qualified to be vice president which is why it was so funny to hear idiots like Kimberly Wilder work themselves into a frenzy over Sarah Palin and insist that she had no qualifications. Ralph Nader is the one who pointed out that Palin was the only candidate for president or vice president who had executive government experience. It's that sort of thing that led me to Ralph's ticket. And Rosa Clemente, honey, learn to speak English. Good Lord, my party -- I'm a Green -- never again needs to run someone who can't speak the language. But along with not grasping that subjects have to agree with verbs, there was always the likelihood that any question would leave her in tears. That trembling voice. And Greens wanted to make fun of Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin was clearly qualified to be vice president. She might even be qualified to be president. She'll never get my vote because I'm not a Republican. But she's qualified. She's more qualified than Barack. And it was hilarious to watch so many Greens rip apart Sarah Palin as unqualified while they stayed silent on Rosa Clemente. Rosa's held what jobs? Rosa's accomplished what in her life? Never elected to any office. Never accomplished anything as a member of the paid work force. Unable to speak out with out almost breaking into tears. Qualifications are not: "She agrees with me!" The candidate may or may not agree with you. You should certainly support a candidate who agrees with you; however, don't confuse ideology with qualifications.
Jess: Rosa Clemente was very weak at the start. As Ava and C.I. have pointed out, she got stronger as the campaign went along. That said, Ann's correct. Those Greens, Kimberly Wilder for example, who have ripped apart Sarah Palin repeatedly with the assertion that she's 'stupid' or 'unqualified' should have to explain their support for Rosa Clemente. Sarah Palin's qualified. I'd go further than Ann and say she's qualified to be president. Like Ann, I'll never vote for her. I disagree with her on every issue.
Jim: Now for Cedric and Mike. My question to you both: Are you prudes? You're both straight men, you're both involved with women -- Cedric's married to Ann, Mike and Elaine live together. Are you prudes? Pig Willy argues you're either for exploiting women or your prudes?
Cedric: I've looked at nude photographs of women before. I would never post one at my website. I would never disgrace women or myself by doing that. When it started, it was one thing and then it morphed into another as Wally and I teamed up for joint-posts but it's never been a sewer. Women can be the butt of the jokes, we do a joint-post that's usually intended to be comic, but we are very aware, Wally and I, that a number of people go to town on women and hold their fire on men. We go to town on men. And most of our joint-posts are focused on the male politician or male reporter that's made an ass out of himself. There is no reason now or ever that I would post any nude to my website. Members of my family, members of my church go to that website. Posting the image Pig Willy did? I'd feel dirty.
Mike: And I think that's what he needed, the way some people get a charge out of having sex in public. Pig Willy needed to get his jollies off via that post. The idea that he was going to humiliate a number of women with that post was behind his selecting that image and using it. In middle school and high school, we looked at porn all the time. If one of the guys got a copy of whatever, we shared it back and forth. And I know my youngest sister was the same with Playgirl and nude males from gay magazines because she and her friends got caught at school with them. And there's nothing wrong with being curious or turned on by the female form or the male form. And there's nothing wrong with writing about sex. But Pig Willy wants to use an outrageous image to increase his traffic, one that has very little to do with anything other than his own legs rubbing together frantically. If I throw a party, I'm not going to post a photo of a nude woman in the hallway -- Elaine wouldn't let me, but I wouldn't even if she did. What would that say to the guests arriving? And what did that lurid image say to people arriving at Pig Willy's website? There was no need for that photo. It divided the readers, it objectified women and it put anyone visiting the site from a work computer at risk of a write up.
Jim: Okay. Isaiah, you've participated in several roundtables recently and I've forgotten you twice. I'm going to give you the last word and the topic's going to stay with Sarah Palin. Isaiah's the community cartoonist. He lampoons and parodies. Isaiah?
Isaiah: I think Jess and Ann made strong points and I agree with [them with] regards to Palin's qualifications. I find people like Bob Somerby to be dishonest when they go around saying Palin's stupid and similar remarks. I don't think we've had a bigger idiot in the White House than Ronald Reagan and Bully Boy Bush. So the idea that Sarah Palin is somehow less smart than either of those men? That is funny. It's not true. It's part of the ongoing effort to strip her of her power. And if you think of 2008, you'll remember how immensely popular she was when she spoke at the RNC. You'll remember what followed was one effort after another to rip her apart, including Barack's comparing her to a fish. They launched non-stop attacks and the end result was crowds still turned out for Palin and a sizable portion of the country still voted for her. Such a sizable portion that I'd argue she could win the presidency. She's not a detriment to the Republican Party. What we've seen since the 2008 race is the media's continued their attacks and non-stop attempts to marginalize and mock her. And still the crowds turn out for her. Sarah Palin's a natural politician and a gifted one. She's not one I'd vote for but I won't deny that she's a natural and one of the few the right-wing can point to.
Jim: And on that, we'll wrap up. This is a rush transcript. Our e-mail address is thirdestatesundayreview@yahoo.com and we've called the pig "Pig Willy" because we don't want to give him any publicity. [Added Jim note: To Brenda and others who e-mailed asking where Mike and Cedric's comments were, I typed this and rushed typing and there was an issue that was raised that we needed clearance on. So I left that out "rush transcript" while I waited for Trina's call back to know if her youngest daughter, Mike's sister, was okay with what he was mentioning? She was and is so the full transcript is now above. I've gone back and added their comments.]