Ty: Mackenzie Phillips' new book is entitled High on Arrival and is out now. Reader Leslie e-mails to ask about C.I.'s thoughts on the book and also notes Stevie Nicks' "I Miss You" is mentioned in it and any comment on Nicks' music.
Jim: To clarify, Leslie was just wanting C.I.'s responses?
Ty: Correct.
C.I.: Mackenzie was always a sweet girl and she remains that as an adult. Rebecca's written about this at least three times at her site. In one of her posts, Rebecca noted I first heard about the book's big revelation in 1997. Mackenzie's not lying and part of her healing is talking about what happened. I haven't read the book. I probably won't unless I learn it has a section on Iraq in it. But she's not lying and best of luck to her with her journey. Not said in a kiss off manner, it's just not a topic I want to discuss, the revelation. I will repeat: She is not lying.
Ty: Stevie Nicks' song?
C.I.: "I Miss You" is a song Stevie wrote with Rick Nowels that appears on Trouble In Shangri-La. I have no idea how Mackenzie references it in the book but I'm sure it's done movingly. It's a wonderful song. I've often thought we should have a roundtable here on just that album -- released in 2001 -- because so much of the album was lost on reviewers.
Jim: In what way?
C.I.: It's a strong album and a new generation of music critics had come up, ones who had seen Stevie repeatedly and unfairly attacked. Add in that the space available for reviews in many outlets had shrunk. So reviewers had to telegraph in a limited space that it was an album worth getting but they didn't have time to explore it. "I Miss You" is a wonderful song. "Love Changes," the song right before it on that album, if I remember correctly, is also a very strong song and it's a song that sailed over many people's heads apparently. If you pay attention, Stevie's sketched out the story of an abused woman rejecting that life.
Dona: I'm jumping in because I didn't know that. Where?
C.I.: The chorus is another voice in the song. A younger voice. The verse is the narrator after she's leaving and has left the abusive relationship. The chorus is the woman in the relationship.
Dona: "I only say what you want to hear, When there is conflict, I stay clear, When he was loving I was in tears, He knows my fears."
C.I.: Right. That's during the abuse.
Elaine: "When love changes in the flash of an eye, it leaves people burnin' by the side of the road." Hmm. I hadn't thought about it but, yes, it's right there. "It wasn't that I didn't love you, I just couldn't make you see, That as hard as I tried, To make it better, It was not better for me."
Dona: I wish I had caught that. I sing along with that song constantly and have it my iPod.
Jim: Dona will hate me, but what's the chorus of "I Miss You," just to have that out there since Leslie mentioned the song.
C.I.: "Well I miss you now, I have so many questions, About love and about pain, about strained relationships, About fame as only he could explain it to me." Again, that song and "Love Changes" are on Stevie's Trouble In Shangri-La.
Ty: Okay, a question for Kat. Robbie wants to know if you're aware "PJ" -- Pearl Jam -- "has a new album out. I hope you're going to review it."
Kat: I have no interest in it. I reviewed that crappy band last go round. That was before Eddie Vedder demonstrated he was nothing but pure bulls**t. He did that by attacking third party and independent presidential candidates in 2008. What a coward, what a loser. In 2000, he was all about Ralph Nader. In 2008, the lying sack of s**t is demonizning anyone who won't stand for Barack. He's a no talent and he's always been a no talent. In a just world, Eddie Vedder would have taken his own life and Kurt Cobain would have stuck around to create art for many more years. Instead we've got Eddie's caterwauling vocals and bad lyrics and political posturing.
Ty: It's been announced for weeks now that we'll be doing a Carly Simon roundtable this month. And that's led to questions about who else we could do as a roundtable feature musically?
Jess: When we were doing music retrospectives of various artists -- we did Stevie Nicks, Tina Turner, Diana Ross and I forget who else -- we had Prince and Dolly Parton on our list but never got around to doing them so we could always grab those two.
Betty: Laura Nyro was another retrospective that was done. The two roundtables have been the Mamas and the Papas and Joni Mitchell. And the retrospectives were killed by C.I. and myself because we were furious with the Diana Ross piece here. During the writing of that piece, we were very vocal that we thought judgments were too harsh and we were adding in our own take. When one of the Third crew -- I know it wasn't C.I. or Ava -- was in charge of editing that piece, it went in the direction C.I. and I fought against and, on top of that, Jim gave it a headline that may have been fitting for the article's point of view after it was heavily edited but was insulting to Diana's career calling it something like 'a sad waste.' That's when I said I'd never work on another retrospective here and C.I. agreed with me. There are e-mails to my site from time to time asking me if there's ever anything I've written that I would disappear? At my site, no. Good or bad, I can live with it. Here? I would delete the Diana retrospective. It's very insulting and we never got what we -- C.I. and I -- were promised, a follow up that looked at Diana as a singles artist.
Jim: And that's an example of how we do have very real conflict when we're writing. There are e-mails where people imagine we all get along and are all saying, "Yes, true that!" to every thought and contribution. Reality, we're generally arguing over each and every line. And if I'd known how much that would hurt Betty, I would have argued that we not publish the Diana piece. Betty was furious. C.I. was as well but she focused on the fact that Betty wasn't listened to and it was only about a year after, during a conversation the two of us were having about an idea for a different feature, that she let me know how angry she still was over that feature. Betty rightly points out that there was a promise made that we'd revist Diana as a singles artist. We've never had time and Ty, Dona and I were scheduled to be off for the last July 4th -- and we were off -- so I suggested they grab it then but Betty's attitude was that this isn't a 'corrective,' that we either all work on it or what's the point? I'm going to open it up to Betty and C.I. for a few remarks on Diana Ross' career or the article we published or whatever. As Betty just explained, she and C.I. were a part of the writing of the original article but, in the editing, all of their contributions were stripped away. I was the editor on that piece, by the way.
Betty: I'm looking at C.I. and she can shake her head if she disagrees with me but, excuse me Jim, we've got a story online trashing Diana's entire career and, I'm sorry, but a few sentences in this roundtable will not be an equal substitute for me or C.I. C.I.'s nodding with me. It's just not good enough. And I will further add that stripping C.I. and my comments out of that article? Not just short-sighted but down right stupid. We are the only two working on that article who had heard every Diana Ross album. Only us. We were the only ones who would have passed for knowledgable and it was our opinions that were stripped from that critique? I'm going to shut up now because I'm going to get mad all over again.
Jim: Okay, I'm going to say something quickly: We obviously need to do some sort of make up feature. Figure it out and let us know what. I'll let it drop because Betty's not joking about being angry. She was angry after that went up in 2007 or 2006 and talking about it now has made her as angry now as she was then so we'll move to a different topic. Ty?
Ty: "Little bombs," "Will She Just Fall Down?," "That's Just What You Are," "no 1 is watching you now," "I Was Thinking I Could Clean Up For Christmas," "Freeway Medicine Wheel," "I Can't Get My Head Around It," "Goodbye Caroline," "J For Jules" and "Video" went up last week, a theme post on Aimee Mann's songs. Jill e-mailed wondering why there wasn't a feature like that at Third and how Aimee Mann got selected?
Mike: I'll go first. Jill, I don't like your question. Are you Jim's ringer? If we give up theme posts as a feature here, what will we do? Seriously, we do a theme post every now and then. We used to do them Tuesdays or Wednesdays. And we stepped away for awhile when people were taking vacations. A theme post allows you to do a quick post that hopefully doesn't require a great deal of research but can just be a fun post. Wally and Cedric do humor posts so it doesn't work for them. Back when Betty was doing her online comic novel at her site, she didn't get to participate either because it wouldn't work. But everyone who posts at night is always invited. Sometimes everyone participates, sometimes they don't. My mother's one who doesn't always participate.
Trina: Right. Sometimes I already have something I'm planning to write about, other times I don't feel I know enough about the theme to write on it. A music theme is always harder for me to say "no" to.
Stan: As for how we picked Aimee, usually someone, Mike or Marcia, will ask if anybody wants to do a theme post. And someone will gather some ideas as they check in with everyone. We did that theme post on Wednesday. What inspired it was a Tuesday morning entry by C.I. about how Iraq's elderly suffered and Nouri turned a blind eye. In that entry, C.I. quoted Aimee Mann's "Freeway" to strong effect and that had us all rethinking the song which we knew. Which led to a lot of talk about other Aimee Mann songs. Then when Wednesday rolled around and theme post talk started, her songs became the obvious choice.
Ty: Crazy2009 wants to know why the only time country music is ever addressed community wide it's from Ava and C.I.?
Trina: Is that true? I'm not saying it's not, but that surprises me. I do, for example, listen to Emmylou Harris.
Marcia: It feels true. I don't know if it is.
Wally: Actually, Cedric and I have referenced some country songs in our joint-entries. Cedric's actually a bit of a country music buff.
Cedric: I am. I am a blues fan and a lot of country, real country, is built on similar roots. As Wally pointed out, we've referenced country songs in our humor posts. The Dixie Chicks are no longer considered country but that's an example of a group that probably everyone here is familiar with. In terms of country, I don't think most people here listen to it. You've got a lot of people coming from urban centers and the coasts so country's not really a big thing for them. Ava and C.I. listen to everything. I try to, but they really do so it's never a surprise to me when they reference something. Kat knows country. Kat?
Kat: Yeah. C.I.'s got a copy of Rosanne Cash's new CD that I've snagged. If I do more than one review this month, it'll be to review Rosanne. My not reviewing her shouldn't be seen as, "Oh, it's not worth having." I've done my reviews and then some this year. And I'm tired so just see it as my being lazy. By the way, get them in a honky tonk and Ava and C.I. will hop on stage and start singing with the band, I'm not joking. And the shocker, they blend perfectly.
Ava: We like country. And to be fair, we're usually dared right before we hop on stage. And Rosanne's new CD is The List which is her performing some of her late father's favorite songs. Jeff Tweedy is among the artists appearing on her new album.
Wally: I have to jump back in to point out that about two weeks ago, Ava and C.I. did a crowd pleasing version of "Looking For Love" -- they did it slowed down to a really slow ballad.
Cedric: They did it better than the original back in the 80s. Wally got a huge section of it on his cellphone and e-mailed it to me.
Dona: I'd like it noted that Betty's from Georgia and I'm a Mid-West gal, in terms of the coastal remark.
Cedric: Noted.
Ty: This one is mainly for Kat and for Ava and C.I and from Bill. The FTC is supposed to have new rules about guidelines for reviews. Kat does CD reviews, Ava and C.I. do TV here. Kat?
Kat: I have never been given an album for review during my online days. But, back in the seventies when I was doing music press, largely photography but some reviews, every time I reviewed an album, we would have copies of that album given to us. This is b.s. from the FTC because they're inventing rules for online that are not required offline. For example, every album reviewed by Rolling Stone is from a copy given to the magazine. I own a copy of everything I've reviewed, a copy I've paid for either in CD format or downloadable. I often grab C.I.'s copies because C.I. gets stuff before it comes out -- that's books, music, DVDs, you name it. C.I.'s always getting gifts offline from offline friends. But anything I review I have paid for a copy of.
Ava: C.I. and I review shows where we know someone on staff. We long ago noted that. And said, for argument's sake, we know someone with every show unless we say otherwise. That's a conflict of interest that the FTC wasn't concerned with, apparently. That hasn't stopped us from sharing what we think. We're not paid for these reviews, by Third or by anyone else. We do get copies of shows and copies of scripts. I agree with Kat that the FTC seems completely unaware of what happens and what doesn't happen in the press. I would further add that neither Third nor The Common Ills is a "blog" so the FTC rules do not apply to us. We're an online magazine at Third and TCI is a "community resource."
Ty: Okay, anyone else?
Trina: I was asked to plug a contest for some company -- no payment involved -- and I did noting that I had been e-mailed about it. I would do that again if it had to do with cooking. I've been offered products for free if I would write a review of them at my site and I have declined that.
Ruth: Trina's been offered a lot of products! She will call me and say, "I just said no to ___." Her site is apparently highly valuable to corporations. I admire her maintaining her dignity and repeatedly saying "no." I have only had one offer. I was told I could have a free pair of glasses if I would write a review about the glasses. I respectfully declined. I had just purchased a new pair of reading glasses. If the e-mail had come in before that, I would have tried -- with me paying for -- the brand being promoted in the e-mail to see what they were like and then reviewed them at my site but I have never reviewed anything I did not purchase at my site.
Ty: C.I.?
C.I.: As Kat noted, I get sent everything in my offline life from various friends. That's my offline life. In terms of the FTC, various writers and publishers have offered versions of their books to read for a review and I've either said no or missed the e-mail completely. In my offline life, I already have friends sending me books and I don't need any more books coming in, especially with an expectation that I'll review the book -- favorably or unfavorably. I promote things friends are doing all the time, however. I wanted to promote Drew's directoral debut, for example and meant to and meant to and just kept missing out over and over. But I'll keep promoting friends and if people don't like it, oh well. I'm not paid for it. We don't take ads at TCI and I don't need the money so we're not bought.
Jim: As noted, here, we're an online magazine --
C.I.: Sorry, Jim, I'm not through. If the FTC wants to fret about the issue of money, they need to get serious. For example, The New York Times. Sam Seder, in the early days of The Majority Report, was launching a non-stop war on Adam Nagourney. What ended it? The paper buying ads and then threatening to pull them if Seder didn't leave Nagourney alone. It's at that point that Seder stops calling him out on air but claiming he will continue to do so online; however, shortly after, Seder ends the Ad Nags website he was running. Ends it and deletes it. Now that's censorship and that's control and that's what the FTC should be worrying about but notice they ignore that and instead go after people they see as powerless. Kind of the way the IRS, under Bush, avoided the fat cats and went after low-income filers.
Ty: Good point. Soren e-mails to note we used to download pieces and stopped that. "Did you stop downloading? Are you planning something to replace them?"
Ruth: I am still downloading. I note that at my site. I am the oldest living downloader in the country!
Rebecca: We did a Jackie DeShannon feature that was strong and I'm sure we did other things. What were they?
Jess: A combo piece on Rod Steweart and Ashford & Simpson.
Rebecca: I think readers might see something musically here on Jackie DeShannon before the end of the year. In terms of downloads, I haven't nixed anything but if we did do a piece and it was about something downloaded from Amazon, I would be complaining about some changes Amazon has made and about some things it needs to fix. In fact, I propose we do a download feature next week.
Marcia: I second that. I wrote about one of the problems at my site two weeks ago after I downloaded Barbra Streisand's new album from Amazon. If I was downloading something this weekend, I'd use iTunes -- which I hate but Amazon's becoming a real pain post-download.
Jim: Okay, we'll put that down as a feature for next week then. In terms of Soren's question. We have multiple things that are regular features but don't run every week. For example, we've got a piece on comics for this edition and we try to cover comics in some manner about once a month. That's one of the things we've added this year. So there are always other things that can come up. Equally true is that some things get worked on but never posted here because they're just not good enough.
Ty: Kyle e-mails asking that we consider doing a piece on Christmas music this year. I know we're getting into the winding down section so I'm flipping through e-mails quickly. Vern e-mails his thanks that "Bonnie Raitt finally got a mention from the site. I've read TESR for three years now and it seems like she's the only one of my favorites you never acknowledged." That's in reference to "Screwing the American music consumer" which was very popular in the e-mails. Dona, tell them what we've listened to so far while working on this edition as I try to pick out one e-mail from the remaining ones.
Dona: Sure. We've listened to Aimee Mann's The Forgotten Arm, Carly Simon's Have You Seen Me Lately?, Heart's The Road Home, Prince's 1999, Graham Nash's Song For Beginners, Matthew Sweet & Susanna Hoffs' Under The Covers Vol. 2 and David Saw's Broken Down Figure.
Ty: Okay, Trent notes C.I.'s "2008: The Year of Living Hormonally" which "mixes music and political commentary" and Trent wonders why "you don't do stuff like that every week" at Third?
Ann: I agree with Trent that's C.I.'s year-in-review is impressive but as for doing it here? I'm not sure we could. Jim?
Jim: No, we couldn't. Ann's right. C.I. writes those things, those year-in-reviews, and spends about three hours on them. That's three hours of writing -- at least -- after having thought about the piece for some time. I know that the spine on that year-in-review was girl group songs and that C.I. was going through various songs as early as the week before Thanksgiving for that piece that she wrote January 1st. In addition, she has all these notes on scraps of paper that she works through. It would be really difficult for us to do a piece like that here because the scope is so huge and we have so many people adding input that it would be a one feature for the week edition. There just wouldn't be time. That's what you were wondering, Ann?
Ann: Yes. I just don't know how we could do that. I marvel over C.I.'s ability to do that but I have no idea how we could ever accomplish that as a group writing piece. And Ben Harper's Diamonds On The Inside just kicked on. To add to Dona's list of what we're listening to as we work on this edition.
Jim: And on that note, we'll close the roundtable. This is a rush transcript. Our e-mail address is thirdestatesundayreview@yahoo.com.